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    Christian Theology - Thread: Why are Some Saved and Not Others?

    1. #11
      MennoSota is offline Expert Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by MoreCoffee View Post
      Any amazement that presumably billions are going to writhe in hell for eternity and all by "God's eternal decree"?
      By a just Judge and King's sovereign decree? No, I am not amazed by what is right and just.
      God is just and justice is good. All humanity is damned to hell by humanities rebellion. It is sad that humans rebelled in Adam, but it is amazing that the just Judge would transfer his Judgment to Jesus atoning sacrifice for those whom he so wills.
      Why do you cringe and complain against the Sovereign King and Creator for choosing as He wills without condescending to your desire to know why he makes the choices he does? God owes you or me no explanation.
      God is good all the time and all the time God is good.

    2. #12
      MoreCoffee's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
      By a just Judge and King's sovereign decree? No, I am not amazed by what is right and just.
      God is just and justice is good. All humanity is damned to hell by humanities rebellion. It is sad that humans rebelled in Adam, but it is amazing that the just Judge would transfer his Judgment to Jesus atoning sacrifice for those whom he so wills.
      ...
      Amazing.
      Pope Gregory I was well known for his alms to the poor, and he gave quite generously of the riches donated to the Church by the wealthy people of Rome. Everything from money to land was given to the poor in some fashion. He made clear to his subordinates that their duty was to relieve the distress faced by the poor.

      He ordered his clergy to go out into the streets to find and care for the poor in person.

    3. #13
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      Post #5:
      Fact #1: God wants all men saved.
      That comes from the passage 1 Timothy 2:1-6 [emphasis added]:
      1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
      2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
      3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
      4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
      5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
      6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.


      In that context, might it be pertinent to ask regarding all men (people), "saved from what"?

      What light does the Nicee Creed of 325AD throw on the matter?
      How about the Nicee Creed of 381AD?
      The Apostles' Creed?
      The Athanasian Creed?

      What does each or any of them have to say on the matter?

      Surely one of them must say something.
      Seeking to understand with precision, God's holy and coherent revelation to us.

    4. Likes Confessional Lutheran liked this post
    5. #14
      Imalive's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by atpollard View Post
      Fact #1: God wants all men saved.
      Fact #2: All unsaved men are spiritually dead.

      CALVINISM:
      Strength: God does 100% of the saving.
      Weakness: Denies Fact #1.

      ARMINIANISM:
      Strength: Places fault for damnation with man, not God.
      Weakness: Even if God does 99.999% of the work of salvation, it still requires some effort from a corrupt (dead) man to save himself so salvation is not 100% of God.

      LUTHERAN SOLUTION:
      God calls all and those who are saved are 100% saved by God.
      Those who are damned are 100% responsible for their own sin and rejection of the Gospel.
      The reason why some are not saved is a mystery that cannot be explained by logic without falling into error.
      (The famous Lutheran "MYSTERY").
      A mystery. That's easy. A lot are not saved cause we have to do what He says. Lester Sumrall, God showed him thousands of ppl falling into hell and said that will happen if you won't preach to them. That was his calling to the ministry.

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    7. #15
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    8. #16
      MoreCoffee's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Pedrito View Post
      Post #5:


      That comes from the passage 1 Timothy 2:1-6 [emphasis added]:
      1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
      2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
      3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
      4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
      5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
      6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.


      In that context, might it be pertinent to ask regarding all men (people), "saved from what"?

      What light does the Nicee Creed of 325AD throw on the matter?
      How about the Nicee Creed of 381AD?
      The Apostles' Creed?
      The Athanasian Creed?

      What does each or any of them have to say on the matter?

      Surely one of them must say something.
      Nicene Creed

      We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
      the only Son of God,
      eternally begotten of the Father,
      God from God, Light from Light,
      true God from true God,
      begotten, not made,
      one in Being with the Father.
      Through him all things were made.
      For us men and for our salvation,
      he came down from heaven
      :

      by the power of the Holy Spirit
      he was born of the Virgin Mary,
      and became man.

      For our sake he was crucified
      under Pontius Pilate;
      he suffered died and was buried.

      On the third day he rose again
      in fulfillment of the Scriptures;

      he ascended into heaven
      and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
      He will come again in glory
      to judge the living and the dead,
      and his kingdom will have no end.

      The Athanasian Creed says something similar.
      Pope Gregory I was well known for his alms to the poor, and he gave quite generously of the riches donated to the Church by the wealthy people of Rome. Everything from money to land was given to the poor in some fashion. He made clear to his subordinates that their duty was to relieve the distress faced by the poor.

      He ordered his clergy to go out into the streets to find and care for the poor in person.

    9. #17
      Josiah's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by atpollard View Post


      Fact #1: God wants all men saved.
      Fact #2: All unsaved men are spiritually dead.


      CALVINISM:
      Strength: God does 100% of the saving.
      Weakness: Denies Fact #1.

      ARMINIANISM:
      Strength: Places fault for damnation with man, not God.
      Weakness: Even if God does 99.999% of the work of salvation, it still requires some effort from a corrupt (dead) man to save himself so salvation is not 100% of God.

      LUTHERAN:
      God calls all and those who are saved are 100% saved by God.
      Those who are damned are 100% responsible for their own sin and rejection of the Gospel.
      The reason why some are not saved is a mystery that cannot be explained by logic without falling into error.
      (The famous Lutheran "MYSTERY").




      .







      .
      We are justified by works - just not our own.

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    11. #18
      MoreCoffee's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Josiah View Post
      That little green "high 5" guy looks a little off colour
      Pope Gregory I was well known for his alms to the poor, and he gave quite generously of the riches donated to the Church by the wealthy people of Rome. Everything from money to land was given to the poor in some fashion. He made clear to his subordinates that their duty was to relieve the distress faced by the poor.

      He ordered his clergy to go out into the streets to find and care for the poor in person.

    12. #19
      Snerfle is offline Veteran Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by atpollard View Post
      Fact #1: God wants all men saved.
      Fact #2: All unsaved men are spiritually dead.

      CALVINISM:
      Strength: God does 100% of the saving.
      Weakness: Denies Fact #1.

      ARMINIANISM:
      Strength: Places fault for damnation with man, not God.
      Weakness: Even if God does 99.999% of the work of salvation, it still requires some effort from a corrupt (dead) man to save himself so salvation is not 100% of God.

      LUTHERAN SOLUTION:
      God calls all and those who are saved are 100% saved by God.
      Those who are damned are 100% responsible for their own sin and rejection of the Gospel.
      The reason why some are not saved is a mystery that cannot be explained by logic without falling into error.
      (The famous Lutheran "MYSTERY").
      So going by the above definitions, it appears that the Lutheran position supports osas, then, yes no?
      Or are the saved 100% saved by God, but He is unable to keep that which He saved?

      The opposition to osas kind of reminds me of a Seinfeld episode, where he made a reservation to rent a car at an airport.

      When he got there, there was no car.
      He stated, 'But I made a reservation'.

      They replied, 'We know, we took the reservation, we know how to take reservations'.
      Seinfeld says, 'You dont seem to know the purpose of taking a reservation'.

      Airport: We know the purpose.
      Seinfeld: Obviously you dont...if you did...I'd have a car!
      You might know how to TAKE reservation,
      but you dont seem to know how to HOLD one.
      And THAT really is the purpose for taking one, isnt it? It's the holding!
      Anybody can just TAKE em. (willy-nilly, lol)
      But its the HOOLLLDDING that really is key, isn't it?

      It seems similar here. Some ppl know how to SAY God saved them (although some dont, it seems, so maybe they're not, but we can't assume that)
      But they dont seem to BELIEVE God saved them...
      They dont seem to trust that God will KEEP them (HOLD the reservation)

      once saved ... maybe?... but not ALWAYS saved? ... maybe?
      ~Deliberate ignorance
      is anti-christian~

    13. #20
      Albion's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
      The Lutheran theory is just a semi-pelagian theory.
      It is a bit complex, I agree, but what you've said here is definitely not the case. Lutherans essentially say that we are lost without Christ but if given the gift of faith can still lose salvation.

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