MennoSota
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I once said the same thing. Then God changed my mind. [emoji56]
Why are Some Saved and Not Others?
- Thread starter Josiah
- Start date
MennoSota
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Of course you and 91 have to ignore much scripture to hold this view.
Carry on...
MennoSota
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May I ask how an RC purist living in the Australian bush country has the experience to say "many protestant bible colleges..."?
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==============================================================================================
Way back in January 2018 (Post #217 on Page 22) I asked a couple of important questions. Whether people realise it or not (their preconditioning could be a problem), the precise answers throw strong light on this topic.
In Post #125, the Poster gave this direct answer to the question “saved from what”: Saved from the just wrath of God is the answer.
I pointed out that none of the creeds actually says that.
==============================================================================================
I therefore felt the need to seek clarification regarding:
- What form or forms does that just wrath of God take?
- When is that form, or when are those forms, actually applied?
==============================================================================================
Unfortunately, there was no meaningful response (that I have noticed).
So, I ask again (hoping for meaningful information this time):
- What form or forms does that just wrath of God take?
- When is that form, or when are those forms, actually applied?
What are the precise answers?
One would think that if people believed their understandings to be scriptural, they would be proud to lay those understandings before us. Isn’t that so?
==============================================================================================
Way back in January 2018 (Post #217 on Page 22) I asked a couple of important questions. Whether people realise it or not (their preconditioning could be a problem), the precise answers throw strong light on this topic.
In Post #125, the Poster gave this direct answer to the question “saved from what”: Saved from the just wrath of God is the answer.
I pointed out that none of the creeds actually says that.
==============================================================================================
I therefore felt the need to seek clarification regarding:
- What form or forms does that just wrath of God take?
- When is that form, or when are those forms, actually applied?
==============================================================================================
Unfortunately, there was no meaningful response (that I have noticed).
So, I ask again (hoping for meaningful information this time):
- What form or forms does that just wrath of God take?
- When is that form, or when are those forms, actually applied?
What are the precise answers?
One would think that if people believed their understandings to be scriptural, they would be proud to lay those understandings before us. Isn’t that so?
==============================================================================================
1689Dave
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God does not want each and every person ever born to be saved, or he would save them. All men = Jew and Gentile alike. Americanized Christianity can be horribly twisted thinking as we do.
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It would really be "horribly twisted thinking" if God were actually to ignore all distinctions between good, obedient people and worshippers of other gods, murderers, etc.
God is merciful. but God is also just. Anyone with even a casual familiarity with the Bible would know this.
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God didn't want Adam and Eve to eat the proverbial apple but not only left it in the garden but left precisely nothing to prevent them from eating it anyway.
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Did God lose? He didn't get what he wanted? This is a limp-wristed godling, you describe, not God.
1689Dave
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Why did God create the universe? Paul says to teach his created order about his manifold wisdom “And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,” Ephesians 3:9–10 (KJV 1900)
Paul also says: “Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?” Romans 9:21–24 (KJV 1900)
So He uses sin to do this. This debunks those who say "God wants all men saved". Unless sin exists, you or the created order cannot know God.
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Still no pithy summary 
1689Dave
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Why did God supposedly save you?Still no pithy summary
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Not from the correct person. Nor relevant to the thread.
1689Dave
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If you believe in universal atonement (no such thing), you save yourself.
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@1689Dave
Does the Bible state that Jesus died for all? (Universal Atonement)
Ephesians 2:8, “For by grace you have been saved through faith in Christ, and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God”
Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.
2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all
John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all
2 Corinthians 5:19 That is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.
1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all.
and many more just like the above.
Does the Bible state that Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY for some unknown few? (Limited Atonement)
Crickets.
+ There is a verse that says "Jesus died for the Elect" but none that say ONLY for the Elect. And there are verses that state that Jesus died for us (Christians) but none that state ONLY for us (indeed, see 1 John 2:2). And without the "only" the point is unsubstantiated. Apologists of this view must employ a silly logical fallacy, one illustrated by this: "Ford makes cars, ergo Ford ONLY makes Mustangs." Even my four year old son can see the absurdity of the logical fallacy radical, extremist Calvinists use as their apologetic for this invention. The whole apologetic has not one Scripture that states their point. It's based entirely on a logical fallacy.
+ And of course if this horrible invention is true, then no one can know if Jesus' death is for THEM (odds are, it's not). And no way to know if their trust in that death for THEM means anything at all since they can't know if it was for them (probably not).
Radical Calvinists invented this dogma in response to Arminianists (who embrace some forms of synergism and Pelagianism) and necessitates the opposition having those views. It doesn't work at all on people who aren't Arminianists. It's based on NO ONE VERSE in Scripture (so much for Sola Scriptura) and on a fallacy that permits them to INSERT the word "only" into texts, the logical fallacy that is the entire basis of their apologetic is like this: "For makes Mustangs, ergo Ford ONLY makes Mustangs." Their entire apologetic rests on this logical fallacy.
Dave, you seem unwilling to read. Scripture or theology.....
Here is the view of Universal Atonement: Jesus died for all. Just 4 words. Can you read them? My four year old son can, and he understands them. Why can't you? Well, I think you CAN you just aren't WILLING.
You insist the doctrine "JESUS DIED FOR ALL" states that we save ourselves. Here's the doctrine: JESUS DIED FOR ALL. Just underlines the words "we" "save" "ourselves" IF you are willing to try, it might be an epiphany for you.
To the thread:
The reason why not all have personal justification cannot be because Jesus did NOT die for them; that theory would require insisting God erred (lied?) when He so often, so clearly, so undeniably, verbatim, in black-and-white words He put on the page, that state Jesus died for all people. The answer must lie elsewhere. Perhaps a good place to look is at the other essential element for personal justification: Faith? Does the Bible state that God gives faith to all? Ah, that might be an insight.
.
Does the Bible state that Jesus died for all? (Universal Atonement)
1 John 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.Ephesians 2:8, “For by grace you have been saved through faith in Christ, and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God”
Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.
2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all
John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
2 Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all
2 Corinthians 5:19 That is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.
1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself as a ransom for all.
and many more just like the above.
Does the Bible state that Jesus did NOT die for all but ONLY, EXCLUSIVELY, SOLELY for some unknown few? (Limited Atonement)
Crickets.
+ There is a verse that says "Jesus died for the Elect" but none that say ONLY for the Elect. And there are verses that state that Jesus died for us (Christians) but none that state ONLY for us (indeed, see 1 John 2:2). And without the "only" the point is unsubstantiated. Apologists of this view must employ a silly logical fallacy, one illustrated by this: "Ford makes cars, ergo Ford ONLY makes Mustangs." Even my four year old son can see the absurdity of the logical fallacy radical, extremist Calvinists use as their apologetic for this invention. The whole apologetic has not one Scripture that states their point. It's based entirely on a logical fallacy.
+ And of course if this horrible invention is true, then no one can know if Jesus' death is for THEM (odds are, it's not). And no way to know if their trust in that death for THEM means anything at all since they can't know if it was for them (probably not).
Radical Calvinists invented this dogma in response to Arminianists (who embrace some forms of synergism and Pelagianism) and necessitates the opposition having those views. It doesn't work at all on people who aren't Arminianists. It's based on NO ONE VERSE in Scripture (so much for Sola Scriptura) and on a fallacy that permits them to INSERT the word "only" into texts, the logical fallacy that is the entire basis of their apologetic is like this: "For makes Mustangs, ergo Ford ONLY makes Mustangs." Their entire apologetic rests on this logical fallacy.
1689Dave said:
Dave, you seem unwilling to read. Scripture or theology.....
Here is the view of Universal Atonement: Jesus died for all. Just 4 words. Can you read them? My four year old son can, and he understands them. Why can't you? Well, I think you CAN you just aren't WILLING.
You insist the doctrine "JESUS DIED FOR ALL" states that we save ourselves. Here's the doctrine: JESUS DIED FOR ALL. Just underlines the words "we" "save" "ourselves" IF you are willing to try, it might be an epiphany for you.
To the thread:
The reason why not all have personal justification cannot be because Jesus did NOT die for them; that theory would require insisting God erred (lied?) when He so often, so clearly, so undeniably, verbatim, in black-and-white words He put on the page, that state Jesus died for all people. The answer must lie elsewhere. Perhaps a good place to look is at the other essential element for personal justification: Faith? Does the Bible state that God gives faith to all? Ah, that might be an insight.
.
Last edited:
1689Dave
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There is no universal reconciliation (atonement). People do not reconcile themselves to God. He reconciles them
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Yup. But that doesn't support your theory. It STILL is a direct contradiction of what the Bible so often, literally, verbatim, exactly, flat-out STATES.
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Well, here's what God said:
"God desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." 1 Timothy 2:4
...and many other Scriptures making the same point.
Why should we believe you rather than God?
.
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