Why are Some Saved and Not Others?

Andrew

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I just had a conversation with my parents about infant baptism, my niece hasn't been baptised because her dad is atheist and a non practising Jehovah's Witness... but according to what the church taught them you are absolutely 100% saved and OSAS when you are baptised in the Catholic church. My argument was likewise but that baptism should come a little later when the child is conscious of what sin is, Jesus took a child and said that unless you are as he you will not see the kingdom, so children are innocent in the eyes of God, also Jesus was 30 when he got baptised. So are all baptised saved? Is it just a matter of what faith you were born into? The bible says you must be baptised and Catholics see it as saved and unsaved, baptised and non baptised.

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Josiah

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I just had a conversation with my parents about infant baptism, my niece hasn't been baptised because her dad is atheist and a non practising Jehovah's Witness... but according to what the church taught them you are absolutely 100% saved and OSAS when you are baptised in the Catholic church. My argument was likewise but that baptism should come a little later when the child is conscious of what sin is, Jesus took a child and said that unless you are as he you will not see the kingdom, so children are innocent in the eyes of God, also Jesus was 30 when he got baptised. So are all baptised saved? Is it just a matter of what faith you were born into? The bible says you must be baptised and Catholics see it as saved and unsaved, baptised and non baptised.


This thread is not about Baptism, infant baptism or OSAS. There are threads concerning all those things here at CH but this isn't one of them. I think your understanding of the Catholic position on all those issues is incorrect but again, you can find that discussion in those threads.


IMO, the issue of why are some saved and not others is not simply and exclusively addressed by who is and is not baptized (whether received before or after the age of "X").
 

atpollard

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Why are some saved and not other?

Because God loves some more than others.
So the question then becomes, why does God love some more than others?
To which I respond: How should I know? Ask God.
 

Josiah

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Why are some saved and not other?

Because God loves some more than others.
So the question then becomes, why does God love some more than others?
To which I respond: How should I know? Ask God.


I disagree with your theory (that God loves some more than others).

But I agree with your "bottom line" .... the answer to the question of this thread is unknown to us. I'd add, and all the human conjectures so far put forward are all very problematic. Best to keep unknowns as unknowns (although that requires more humility than many have)
 

Lamb

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Why are some saved and not other?

Because God loves some more than others.
So the question then becomes, why does God love some more than others?
To which I respond: How should I know? Ask God.

For God so loved the world...

Could you state where scriptures specifically state that God loves some more than others in regards for salvation?
 

MennoSota

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IMO, the issue of why are some saved and not others is not simply and exclusively addressed by

who is and is not baptized (whether received before or after the age of "X").

Wrong.
Baptism has nothing to do with God's choosing to adopt or not adopt someone. You make it salvation by works, which is anathema.
God chose whom He willed with no information given to you or me regarding his process of choosing. All he tells us is that whomever he chose, it was purely because he was gracious. It had NOTHING to do with water baptism.
 

Josiah

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Wrong.
Baptism has nothing to do with God's choosing to adopt or not adopt someone. You make it salvation by works, which is anathema.
God chose whom He willed with no information given to you or me regarding his process of choosing. All he tells us is that whomever he chose, it was purely because he was gracious. It had NOTHING to do with water baptism.

I never remotely indicated that it did.
 

MennoSota

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I never remotely indicated that it did.
Here's what you wrote:

IMO, the issue of why are some saved and not others is not simply and exclusively addressed by

who is and is not baptized (whether received before or after the age of "X").

You explicitly say that baptism is the exclusive determiner of who is saved and who is not saved. You couldn't be more clear.
Sadly, you are clearly wrong.
 

Albion

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Here's what you wrote:
You explicitly say that baptism is the exclusive determiner of who is saved and who is not saved. You couldn't be more clear.
Sadly, you are clearly wrong.
Hmmm. It's odd that you could read what Josiah wrote and take from it the exact opposite of what he said.
 

MennoSota

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Hmmm. It's odd that you could read what Josiah wrote and take from it the exact opposite of what he said.
I quoted exactly what he said. It's odd that you could take what he said and make it say something else.
 

Josiah

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Hmmm. It's odd that you could read what Josiah wrote and take from it the exact opposite of what he said.


AMAZING, isn't it? Perhaps he just deleted the word "not" from my post so that he could attack me for staying the exact opposite of what I posted?


But back to the issue at hand....
 

Lamb

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Here's what you wrote:

IMO, the issue of why are some saved and not others is not simply and exclusively addressed by

who is and is not baptized (whether received before or after the age of "X").



You explicitly say that baptism is the exclusive determiner of who is saved and who is not saved. You couldn't be more clear.
Sadly, you are clearly wrong.

Ooopsie. It appears you overlooked the word "not". We've all done that though. Back to the topic now folks :)
 

Albion

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Yes, it does look as though he might have simply misread that post.
 

atpollard

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GOD HAS FAVORITES:

Deuteronomy 7:6 NASB “For you are a holy people to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.

Psalm 33:12 NASB Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD, The people whom He has chosen for His own inheritance.

1 Peter 2:9 NASB But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR God's OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;



GOD CAN HATE:
Psalm 11:5 NASB The LORD tests the righteous and the wicked, And the one who loves violence His soul hates.

Proverbs 6:16-19 NASB
16 There are six things which the LORD hates,
Yes, seven which are an abomination to Him:
17 Haughty eyes, a lying tongue,
And hands that shed innocent blood,
18 A heart that devises wicked plans,
Feet that run rapidly to evil,
19 A false witness who utters lies,
And one who spreads strife among brothers.

Amos 6:8 NASB The Lord GOD has sworn by Himself, the LORD God of hosts has declared:
“I loathe the arrogance of Jacob,
And detest his citadels;
Therefore I will deliver up the city and all it contains.”

Romans 9:13 NASB Just as it is written, “JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED.”



IT IS A TERRIBLE THING TO FALL INTO THE HANDS OF THE LIVING GOD. (Hebrews 10:31)

Revelation 14:14-20 NASB
14 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and sitting on the cloud was one like a son of man, having a golden crown on His head and a sharp sickle in His hand. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying out with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, “Put in your sickle and reap, for the hour to reap has come, because the harvest of the earth is ripe.” 16 Then He who sat on the cloud swung His sickle over the earth, and the earth was reaped.
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, and he also had a sharp sickle. 18 Then another angel, the one who has power over fire, came out from the altar; and he called with a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, “Put in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters from the vine of the earth, because her grapes are ripe.” 19 So the angel swung his sickle to the earth and gathered the clusters from the vine of the earth, and threw them into the great wine press of the wrath of God. 20 And the wine press was trodden outside the city, and blood came out from the wine press, up to the horses’ bridles, for a distance of two hundred miles.
 

Josiah

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Yes, God has favorites. But there's nothing that states that He thus saves the "faves" but fries the "unfaves." And of course, that would just "bump" the discussion....

Yes, God "hates" all that falls short of the mark. That includes everyone since all fall short of the mark. Unless one is absolutely PERFECT in love, morality, service and obedience - from conception on - they are hated by God (which leaves just one exception - Jesus). But since some ARE saved, that doesn't help us... obviously some whom God hates are nonetheless loved and saved. Indeed, some believe that's part of Jesus' point in John 3:16 since "world" often means "fallen, sinful, undeserving"....
 

atpollard

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For God so loved the world...
Could you state where scriptures specifically state that God loves some more than others in regards for salvation?

Yes, (John 6:33-34) but it would drag us further off topic.
 

MennoSota

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AMAZING, isn't it? Perhaps he just deleted the word "not" from my post so that he could attack me for staying the exact opposite of what I posted?


But back to the issue at hand....
It appears that I owe you a humble apology. The "not" in your sentence does change the meaning and I failed to comprehend it in my reading. I am entirely at fault and am sorry for arguing a moot point. Please forgive me.
 

MennoSota

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Yes, God has favorites. But there's nothing that states that He thus saves the "faves" but fries the "unfaves." And of course, that would just "bump" the discussion....

Yes, God "hates" all that falls short of the mark. That includes everyone since all fall short of the mark. Unless one is absolutely PERFECT in love, morality, service and obedience - from conception on - they are hated by God (which leaves just one exception - Jesus). But since some ARE saved, that doesn't help us... obviously some whom God hates are nonetheless loved and saved. Indeed, some believe that's part of Jesus' point in John 3:16 since "world" often means "fallen, sinful, undeserving"....
Ephesians 2:1 says that we fell and missed the mark so badly that we were dead in our trespasses and sins. Ephesians 2:4-5 states that God made us alive. The idea being that God raised us from our deadness and landed us perfectly upon the mark. The greek in this passage is amazing in how that thought is conveyed. Who then are the ones whom God made alive? Paul tells us in Ephesians 1:4-5 that it is those who were chosen before the foundation of the world.
 

kiwimac

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Why are BOTH John Calvin and Jakob Arminius WRONG?


Why are HUMAN attempts to Make God Simple and Logical WRONG?


Why are there NOT just two Options: Greek Fate or Free Will?


Why BOTH Arminians and Calvinists must ignore LOTS of Scriptures to "answer" this question?



This video is part of a class lecture and is 32 minutes long (I realize, too long for many) but he comes to the crux of things around minute 15 (listen to the rest for sure). I invite you to listen to the whole 32 minutes as he explains both Calvin and Arminius - the two theories that prevail today in modern Western Christianity.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAqrIOchEN8



The teacher here is Dr. Joel Biermann from Concordia Seminary in Saint Louis.



- Josiah



.

Simple answer: John 12:32 ESV

32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”
 

atpollard

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Simple answer: John 12:32 ESV

32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

Universalism? Or was He not yet lifted up? (Because I can assure you that ALL PEOPLE are not drawn to Jesus. Many do not like him.)
I think we need some sort of statement of your thoughts on that scripture.
 
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