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    Christian Theology - Thread: Why are Some Saved and Not Others?

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    1. #1
      Josiah's Avatar
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      Question Why are Some Saved and Not Others?

      .


      Why are BOTH John Calvin and Jakob Arminius WRONG?


      Why are HUMAN attempts to Make God Simple and Logical WRONG?


      Why are there NOT just two Options: Greek Fate or Free Will?


      Why BOTH Arminians and Calvinists must ignore LOTS of Scriptures to "answer" this question?



      This video is part of a class lecture and is 32 minutes long (I realize, too long for many) but he comes to the crux of things around minute 15 (listen to the rest for sure). I invite you to listen to the whole 32 minutes as he explains both Calvin and Arminius - the two theories that prevail today in modern Western Christianity.






      The teacher here is Dr. Joel Biermann from Concordia Seminary in Saint Louis.



      - Josiah



      .
      Last edited by Josiah; 11-28-2017 at 09:42 PM.
      We are justified by works - just not our own.

    2. #2
      MoreCoffee's Avatar
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      Do you have a pithy summary of the crux of the matter?
      Pope Gregory I was well known for his alms to the poor, and he gave quite generously of the riches donated to the Church by the wealthy people of Rome. Everything from money to land was given to the poor in some fashion. He made clear to his subordinates that their duty was to relieve the distress faced by the poor.

      He ordered his clergy to go out into the streets to find and care for the poor in person.

    3. #3
      Josiah's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by MoreCoffee View Post
      Do you have a pithy summary of the crux of the matter?
      Not for those without 30 minutes...... Dr. Biermann speaks of the 2 modern Protestant theories to this question - and shows (VERY briefly) why both are wrong. And shows a third approach.... Now this is VERY brief, but if he (and you) had the time, he could point out that actually the ancient church rejected both of these theories too.... as my Greek Orthodox friend points out, "Christians lost the ability to shut up, lost the ability to let God tell us what we need to know, lost all sense of MYSTERY." Biermann introduces later in the video but there's no time to develop it.

      Lutherans aren't opposed to asking the question .... just appointing self to "answer" it (and mandate God agrees or God is illogical). Lutherans think that the Predestination idea has merit (we call it "Election") but that Calvin - ignoring SO many Scriptures - takes it much too far. Lutherans think Arminius is right about only one thing: if we aren't saved, it's our fault. Again, the video introduces all this.
      We are justified by works - just not our own.

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    5. #4
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      Quote Originally Posted by Josiah View Post
      Not for those without 30 minutes...... Dr. Biermann speaks of the 2 modern Protestant theories to this question - and shows (VERY briefly) why both are wrong. And shows a third approach.... Now this is VERY brief, but if he (and you) had the time, he could point out that actually the ancient church rejected both of these theories too.... as my Greek Orthodox friend points out, "Christians lost the ability to shut up, lost the ability to let God tell us what we need to know, lost all sense of MYSTERY." Biermann introduces later in the video but there's no time to develop it.

      Lutherans aren't opposed to asking the question .... just appointing self to "answer" it (and mandate God agrees or God is illogical). Lutherans think that the Predestination idea has merit (we call it "Election") but that Calvin - ignoring SO many Scriptures - takes it much too far. Lutherans think Arminius is right about only one thing: if we aren't saved, it's our fault. Again, the video introduces all this.
      thanks
      Pope Gregory I was well known for his alms to the poor, and he gave quite generously of the riches donated to the Church by the wealthy people of Rome. Everything from money to land was given to the poor in some fashion. He made clear to his subordinates that their duty was to relieve the distress faced by the poor.

      He ordered his clergy to go out into the streets to find and care for the poor in person.

    6. #5
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      Quote Originally Posted by MoreCoffee View Post
      Do you have a pithy summary of the crux of the matter?
      Fact #1: God wants all men saved.
      Fact #2: All unsaved men are spiritually dead.

      CALVINISM:
      Strength: God does 100% of the saving.
      Weakness: Denies Fact #1.

      ARMINIANISM:
      Strength: Places fault for damnation with man, not God.
      Weakness: Even if God does 99.999% of the work of salvation, it still requires some effort from a corrupt (dead) man to save himself so salvation is not 100% of God.

      LUTHERAN SOLUTION:
      God calls all and those who are saved are 100% saved by God.
      Those who are damned are 100% responsible for their own sin and rejection of the Gospel.
      The reason why some are not saved is a mystery that cannot be explained by logic without falling into error.
      (The famous Lutheran "MYSTERY").

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    8. #6
      MennoSota is offline Expert Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by atpollard View Post
      Fact #1: God wants all men saved.
      Fact #2: All unsaved men are spiritually dead.

      CALVINISM:
      Strength: God does 100% of the saving.
      Weakness: Denies Fact #1.

      ARMINIANISM:
      Strength: Places fault for damnation with man, not God.
      Weakness: Even if God does 99.999% of the work of salvation, it still requires some effort from a corrupt (dead) man to save himself so salvation is not 100% of God.

      LUTHERAN SOLUTION:
      God calls all and those who are saved are 100% saved by God.
      Those who are damned are 100% responsible for their own sin and rejection of the Gospel.
      The reason why some are not saved is a mystery that cannot be explained by logic without falling into error.
      (The famous Lutheran "MYSTERY").
      The Lutheran theory is just a semi-pelagian theory.
      God must have a soft voice if he calls all, but only a few show up. That position paints God as a passive recording and humans as active choosers and deciders of their own fate. It's just a version of semi-pelagian thinking. It's synergistic.

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      atpollard is offline Prodigy Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
      The Lutheran theory is just a semi-pelagian theory.
      God must have a soft voice if he calls all, but only a few show up. That position paints God as a passive recording and humans as active choosers and deciders of their own fate. It's just a version of semi-pelagian thinking. It's synergistic.
      You can watch the video for yourself, but that isn't the sense that I got from it. Lutherans simply refuse to guess at why some are not saved, but embrace the ELECTION half of 'Calvinism' while rejecting "double predestination".

      While it contradicts the Westminnster Confession of Faith, it is completely compatible with the Heidelberg Catechism and the version of Classic Reformed Theology that I embrace.

      In any event, his presentation of Calvinism was not really true to how a Reformed Thologian would have expressed it. R.C. Sproul would set him straight.
      His presentation of Arminianism is not quite as Wesley would have expressed it.
      Overall, he didn't do a bad job. His Lutheran roots just showed through.

    10. #8
      atpollard is offline Prodigy Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
      The Lutheran theory is just a semi-pelagian theory.
      God must have a soft voice if he calls all, but only a few show up. That position paints God as a passive recording and humans as active choosers and deciders of their own fate. It's just a version of semi-pelagian thinking. It's synergistic.
      So rather than tear down, what is your answer to:

      Why are so few saved if God is so Soverign?
      (A question I would not touch with a 10 foot pole.)

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      Quote Originally Posted by atpollard View Post
      So rather than tear down, what is your answer to:

      Why are so few saved if God is so Soverign?
      (A question I would not touch with a 10 foot pole.)
      Odd question.
      That God would choose to adopt one person throughout all history would be an act of amazing grace. That God chooses to adopt millions upon millions is beyond amazing.
      Sovereignty means that the ruler can decide and do whatever he wants and has no need to answer why he chose as he did. God chooses as he wills precisely because he is Sovereign.
      Now...why are you such a scared person?

    13. #10
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      Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
      The Lutheran theory is just a semi-pelagian theory.
      It is a bit complex, I agree, but what you've said here is definitely not the case. Lutherans essentially say that we are lost without Christ but if given the gift of faith can still lose salvation.

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