Doubts in my Church

Lamb · Nov 27, 2017

DHoffmann said:
She was asking them about her loved ones that have already passed from this world, they had convinced her that anyone who had not been baptised in his name, not repented nor received the Holy Spirit with evidence of speaking tongues (basically outside the church) that they were not saved and therefore are in hell. She asked if she could at least pray for them and he said "No..... i dont know". I see it as he was so quick to answer but deep down he knew he was wrong, he then changed his argument to "only God can judge", although thats true he seems to be in limbo and therefore not qualified for debate. Bless her heart, she ask things that I wont even ask them because I read the word which can tell me more than any man can, but she is like most people, relying on outside interpretation (when both inside and outside are necessary I believe). Her humble condition reflects her heart directly and this I admire.

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Do they ever talk about forgiveness of sins won at the cross?

MoreCoffee · Nov 27, 2017

You've got a lot of advice [MENTION=387]DHoffmann[/MENTION] and not all of it is consistent so I hope you're up for winnowing it all and arriving at a conclusion that you can live with.

Andrew · Nov 27, 2017

Lämmchen said:
Do they ever talk about forgiveness of sins won at the cross?

Actually not really, sermons are usually based on OT stories. They preach repent and be baptised by water (and God will forget all prior sin) and be baptised in the spirit and sin no more (strict obedience) but not too much talk about the cross, probably not any so far since I have been there. They once talked about picking up your own cross but I wish they would talk about things other than the pentecost and the OT. Wow, sounds pretty bad when I type this stuff out.

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MoreCoffee · Nov 27, 2017

DHoffmann said:
Actually not really, sermons are usually based on OT stories. They preach repent and be baptised by water (and God will forget all prior sin) and be baptised in the spirit and sin no more (strict obedience) but not too much talk about the cross, probably not any so far since I have been there. They once talked about picking up your own cross but I wish they would talk about things other than the pentecost and the OT. Wow, sounds pretty bad when I type this stuff out.

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It's what they were taught by those that went before them. They probably do not have bad intentions. Forgive them but take away the lesson that forgiveness is important.

This, then, is how you should pray:

'Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us today our daily bread. Forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one. '
For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins. [Matthew 6:9-15]

Andrew · Nov 27, 2017

MoreCoffee said:
It's what they were taught by those that went before them. They probably do not have bad intentions. Forgive them but take away the lesson that forgiveness is important.

This, then, is how you should pray:

'Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us today our daily bread. Forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one. '
For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins. [Matthew 6:9-15]

Thanks MC, they mean well I really do believe that but they do press losing salvation and that tho we make mistakes, backsliding seems to be common in these denominations or at least in this church. People will stay devoted and these ease out, probably do to the amount of time they have to spend there throughout the week. Its ok to cut your cable and toss out your tv but I cant find that in the bible

Thanks for the reassurance MC, forgiveness is key and we all fall short of the glory of God, they sometimes come off a bit boastful

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Lamb · Nov 27, 2017

DHoffmann said:
Actually not really, sermons are usually based on OT stories. They preach repent and be baptised by water (and God will forget all prior sin) and be baptised in the spirit and sin no more (strict obedience) but not too much talk about the cross, probably not any so far since I have been there. They once talked about picking up your own cross but I wish they would talk about things other than the pentecost and the OT. Wow, sounds pretty bad when I type this stuff out.

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As MC says, they're just teaching what they were taught. The problem is that they are forgetting the truth of the Gospel message and going straight to YOU MUST DO OR ELSE type of preaching. Where is Jesus found in that? Where is forgiveness?

It's the good news that converts us. It's the good news that strengthens us. If we are only being fed law and not anything about what Jesus did then are we really being fed properly? I'd be very concerned if I were you.

user1234 · Nov 27, 2017

Lämmchen said:
Do they ever talk about forgiveness of sins won at the cross?

So important ... Mercy and justice met at the cross ..... However, your next post...↓

Lämmchen said:
As MC says, they're just teaching what they were taught. The problem is that they are forgetting the truth of the Gospel message and going straight to YOU MUST DO OR ELSE type of preaching. Where is Jesus found in that? Where is forgiveness?

It's the good news that converts us. It's the good news that strengthens us. If we are only being fed law and not anything about what Jesus did then are we really being fed properly? I'd be very concerned if I were you.

I think there have been enough red flags about DH's church that all most of us here are recommending he find another.
(Personally, Id be running, but I understand its not always easy.)

But isnt the dilemma you posted about pretty much exactly the problem with the RomanCatholic denomination?!
They're mired in works and religion for righteousness, basically skipping over (to put it mildly, as you did) the gospel, and there isnt a whole lot of good news, either from that denomination, or from many of the members that I know, when you get to the core of things.

Like you said, Lämm, Jesus WON the victory and GIVES it to us, that's good news.
Having to keep some kind of laws or ceremonies and having fear hanging over our heads is not.

Lamb · Nov 27, 2017

Snerfle, how many Roman Catholic masses have you attended? I've been to plenty and Jesus is always there and throughout the mass along with the Gospel.

Andrew · Nov 27, 2017

Don't get me wrong, the sermons (general church) are pretty good its really the bible study group hosts that I cannot agree with, I believe my brother has a ton of guilt and he is fully committed to all things pentecostal which I find nothing wrong with but he leads me and others into a really dark view of salvation, to him im sure its "light" but he is all works and he is determined to make "disciples" after his likeness or understanding. He means well and im all for his lifestyle but its just not me. He is not an antichrist but im sure even pastor would correct him if he attended his studies. The church does lack teaching of the cross which IS a big deal for me because when I combine the two (lack of teaching the work on the cross and my brothers self proclaimed initiation by his truth doctrine) I get very confused.
If they or he truly believes that salvation is won through the church it frightens the heck out of me. My visions of hell are very vivid and I wouldnt wish it on my worst enemy, I have suffered with depression my whole life and that pretty much is a living state of death, I can personally call that a form of hell, and likewise would not wish it on my worst enemy, not stating he does but if my grandma who in my eyes has undoubtedly the full on Holy Spirit as a Catholic, is hell bound simply because she wasnt baptised in Jesus name alone, I just cant be involved with that belief. You cant pray for your lost loved ones? The church requires verbal evidence of the Holy Spirit? Shajggkahksmajdb lol
So yes its in the church but I never noticed it until the bible studies.
Lam and snerfle, my first hellish nightmares came from Catholic teachings as well, and again mostly from sunday school, CCD/CCE and my parents who tried to scare me into acting right. The idea of literally burning in eternal torment and flames for not gaining salvation from a certain church with all of its works is something that still causes misery and depression, to believe good people and believers (followers of Christ) can still and will ultimately go to hell if they dont do this or that -that a church teaches.
Im going off arent I? But it needs to be said in my case, the bible study guide has really screwed me over

before I was really happy in the church but now i am starting to feel like Christianity is a small cult that only a very few will understand, that the resurrection of the dead is the rebirth, that eternal life is not a goal after death but is implied that we are one with God here and now and that we shouldnt worry about death because we are re-alive now spiritually and thus physically (resurrected from certain death). This contradicts the literal hell but at the same time confirms it as I cannot maintain any peace that I had when I first joined this forum.
I apologise for this lengthy reply, I have been feeling really off today and want to explain my views while im in this terrible moment... its just the truth.
God bless and thank you for taking the time to read this through.

MoreCoffee · Nov 27, 2017

Lämmchen said:
Snerfle, how many Roman Catholic masses have you attended? I've been to plenty and Jesus is always there and throughout the mass along with the Gospel.

It must be admitted that every single mass includes the gospel because it can't even be a mass without the gospel being heard, believed, and obeyed. That's what a mass means. Even the word "mass" is part of an exhortation to go out into the world and preach the gospel - Ite, missa est are the concluding Latin words addressed to the people in the Mass of the Roman Rite, it means "it is ended", and last word spoken to the people in the dismissal is "Go and announce the gospel of the Lord!".

Andrew · Nov 27, 2017

MoreCoffee said:
It must be admitted that every single mass includes the gospel because it can't even be a mass without the gospel being heard, believed, and obeyed. That's what a mass means. Even the word "mass" is part of an exhortation to go out into the world and preach the gospel - Ite, missa est are the concluding Latin words addressed to the people in the Mass of the Roman Rite, it means "it is ended", and last word spoken to the people in the dismissal is "Go and announce the gospel of the Lord!".

I might just go rome, might even do all that silly stuff those silly people do [emoji56]
...but can I leap over pews?

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MoreCoffee · Nov 27, 2017

DHoffmann said:
I might just go rome, might even do all that silly stuff those silly people do [emoji56]
...but can I leap over pews?

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If you're agile enough you can leap over the pews but be sure to do it when nobody is looking

Andrew · Nov 27, 2017

MoreCoffee said:
If you're agile enough you can leap over the pews but be sure to do it when nobody is looking

Gods looking is all im concerned about

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MoreCoffee · Nov 27, 2017

DHoffmann said:
Gods looking is all im concerned about

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He is. But maybe he doesn't mind about pew jumping when nobody else is looking

Andrew · Nov 27, 2017

MoreCoffee said:
He is. But maybe he doesn't mind about pew jumping when nobody else is looking

Btw did you read my ramble in post 89?
Might help you relate my proposal to the Catholic faith rather than my current catastrophe lol

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Andrew · Nov 27, 2017

moreCoffee unsung Catholic king of CH, may you edify us as to the origins of the pews and there sole importance to church customs and rituals? Not to be confused with jews

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MoreCoffee · Nov 27, 2017

DHoffmann said:
Don't get me wrong, the sermons (general church) are pretty good its really the bible study group hosts that I cannot agree with, I believe my brother has a ton of guilt and he is fully committed to all things pentecostal which I find nothing wrong with but he leads me and others into a really dark view of salvation, to him im sure its "light" but he is all works and he is determined to make "disciples" after his likeness or understanding. He means well and im all for his lifestyle but its just not me. He is not an antichrist but im sure even pastor would correct him if he attended his studies. The church does lack teaching of the cross which IS a big deal for me because when I combine the two (lack of teaching the work on the cross and my brothers self proclaimed initiation by his truth doctrine) I get very confused.
If they or he truly believes that salvation is won through the church it frightens the heck out of me. My visions of hell are very vivid and I wouldnt wish it on my worst enemy, I have suffered with depression my whole life and that pretty much is a living state of death, I can personally call that a form of hell, and likewise would not wish it on my worst enemy, not stating he does but if my grandma who in my eyes has undoubtedly the full on Holy Spirit as a Catholic, is hell bound simply because she wasnt baptised in Jesus name alone, I just cant be involved with that belief. You cant pray for your lost loved ones? The church requires verbal evidence of the Holy Spirit? Shajggkahksmajdb lol
So yes its in the church but I never noticed it until the bible studies.
Lam and snerfle, my first hellish nightmares came from Catholic teachings as well, and again mostly from sunday school, CCD/CCE and my parents who tried to scare me into acting right. The idea of literally burning in eternal torment and flames for not gaining salvation from a certain church with all of its works is something that still causes misery and depression, to believe good people and believers (followers of Christ) can still and will ultimately go to hell if they dont do this or that -that a church teaches.
Im going off arent I? But it needs to be said in my case, the bible study guide has really screwed me over before I was really happy in the church but now i am starting to feel like Christianity is a small cult that only a very few will understand, that the resurrection of the dead is the rebirth, that eternal life is not a goal after death but is implied that we are one with God here and now and that we shouldnt worry about death because we are re-alive now spiritually and thus physically (resurrected from certain death). This contradicts the literal hell but at the same time confirms it as I cannot maintain any peace that I had when I first joined this forum.
I apologise for this lengthy reply, I have been feeling really off today and want to explain my views while im in this terrible moment... its just the truth.
God bless and thank you for taking the time to read this through.

There's always a few people in every church who like to dwell on dark things and make life miserable for everybody. And there's always a path around their dark places so stick with the light and avoid the dark places. It's good to know that dark places exist but it's no good to live in one. God bless you and keep you in the light.

MoreCoffee · Nov 27, 2017

DHoffmann said:
moreCoffee unsung Catholic king of CH, may you edify us as to the origins of the pews and there sole importance to church customs and rituals? Not to be confused with jews

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Church customs are usually sensible in their historical context but sometimes they outstay their welcome. Pews were probably cheaper to make than lots of chairs - but now with mass-production of chairs made of plastic I imagine chairs are cheaper.

:smirk:

Albion · Nov 27, 2017

Pews have no "importance to church customs and rituals," DH.

user1234 · Nov 28, 2017

Lämmchen said:
Snerfle, how many Roman Catholic masses have you attended? I've been to plenty and Jesus is always there and throughout the mass along with the Gospel.

Too many.
Jesus is always there? What does that even mean? Where? In the abomination they call the monstrance? The candle lighting? The graven images and statues/idols?
And you say thruout the MASS? And the GOSPEL IS SUPPOSED TO BE THERE?? REALLY? Have we lost all discernment? Which gospel?

But I hadnt even MENTIONED what goes on INSIDE the thousands of RC buildings around the world, particularly, the ones in the USA, Latin America, and the main headquarters in Rome or the Vatican, which are bad enough...

I was referring to the many TEACHINGS of that denomination which go against Jesus and Gods Word the Bible.
But, combine the doctrines with the practices, and I would recommend DHoffman head away from, not into, the RomanCatholic denomination, before he jumps from the frying pan into the fire.

Doubts in my Church

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