Doubts in my Church

DHoffmann said:

I just moved back from Spring last year. The crime rate in middle class neighborhoods are alarming thats why I moved out of it. Especially during the holidays, they follow you home from Christmas shopping and they pull up to you at night when you stop (before you turn off the ignition) and at gun point you are forced out then they drive your car away, by the time the cops locate it all of your stuff is gone. They have to pay cops extra just to drive through more often but its still bad, also in the bumper to bumper traffic you got a lot of hookers, drug dealers and scammers coming up to you its not good at all.

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some parts of FM 1960 were like that when I was younger. But, if you really wanted to see strange stuff you had to drive down to Montrose in Houston. i'm talking strange stuff.

DHoffmann said:

Yup 1960 is pretty horrible. About Montrose lol believe me I know, have not been there in a while but I can only imagine how its gotten since all this transgender business started.

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Yep, it was transgender before that was even a word

I pray that you find a good church to attend [MENTION=387]DHoffmann[/MENTION], God be with you.

DHoffmann said:

Sometimes they say things that are irrational and unbiblical.

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IMO, a church that states things in theology that are unbiblical is a church we should leave.....

There may be things abiblical (things the Bible neither confirms or denies).... we may disagree with applications.... we may disagree with things expressed as OPINION.... we may be okay with views NOT binding on us..... but if it's dogmatic - we should run.

Such claims "no tongues no salvation", we can "lose salvation through bad works" or "sustain salvation through good works", no "salvation outside the church" etc.

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IMO, Drew, these are major false teachings......

In my case I needed answers and went straight to the source many years ago before even trying to seek a church.

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You can discuss some of those topics here....

So my question to a Christian would simply be... Church suggestions? lol

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Well, I was Catholic and ended up Lutheran - but that's MY faith journey....



- Josiah

It's weird that they invite those then. I'd go find another church. Some of that stuff sounds like a cult I was in. If I came once a sunday instead of twice he'd preach that if we keep sinning wilfully theres no forgiveness possible anymore. sinning wilfully: not go to every service.

DHoffmann said:

So as you all know I attend a Pentecostal church. I believe I was called to this church because of something that happened to me out of no where 3 years ago that lead me there, im not sure why tho. I enjoy the intimacy of the brethren and the freedom of worship in the church. I love the sermons they preach as well, I agree with them as long as they dont trail off into boasting and works or lack thereof.
Sometimes they say things that are irrational and unbiblical.

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If things appear unbiblical it's always good to make sure that the problem isn't that you misunderstood the Scriptures and the preacher/teacher has correctly understood them. It's a good sign if the preacher is willing to discuss why they said what they did. If they won't discuss it with you, or they become evasive, or they act in a way that makes it clear they consider themselves above being challenged by the congregation, that's a bad sign.

Such claims "no tongues no salvation", we can "lose salvation through bad works" or "sustain salvation through good works", no "salvation outside the church" etc.

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"No tongues no salvation" is a teaching that would trigger me to leave the church in a hurry. There is no record of the thief on the cross beside Jesus who repented speaking in tongues, yet Jesus assured him that he would be in paradise. The thief on the cross who repented presents a problem to a few beliefs regarding what is required for salvation.

The issue of works is a tricky one because James made it very clear that faith without works is dead. That said Paul talked of the man who entered heaven "as if escaping through fire", suggesting that the man with a nominal faith backed by nothing on the outside may enter heaven even if he does not receive as large a reward. The nature of the reward isn't entirely clear. "No salvation outside the church" sounds like something that could be interpreted different ways - if it means no salvation outside Jesus Christ then it's Biblical. If it means no salvation outside that particular church then it's a good sign the church is becoming cult-like, if it isn't already.

A few weeks ago I was at a home bible study with a brother and a few sisters in faith. one of the sisters suffers from bipolar disorder and completely discontinued her medication because she was in fear that it was sinful and was preventing her "Holy living" necessary for salvation. It was a disaster, she was crying and got in a long debate about how she would rather burn in hell with her kids if they were going to hell for not going to church. She was upset about her loved ones who passed away because they were not baptised in the name of Jesus. She even asked if she could still pray for them and the brother said "no" and then feeling some conviction said "i dont know, only God can judge".

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The issue of healing by secular means is something where some on the ultra-pentecostal/charismatic side really go off the rails. The idea that God guarantees our healing and therefore taking medicine shows a lack of faith is, IMO, a hugely dangerous teaching. It always reminds me of the apocryphal tale of the man in a house as the flood waters rose, who had an unshakable faith that God would rescue him. While the waters were low enough a large 4x4 drove past and offered him a ride out, and he refused because God would save him. As the waters rose further a boat came past and again he refused because God would save him. As the waters rose further he took refuge on his roof, and refused help from a rescue helicopter because God would save him. Finally the waters washed him away and he drowned. As he entered heaven he asked why God hadn't rescued him, to which said he had sent a 4x4, a boat and a helicopter and wondered just what more he was expected to do.

The point of this really is that God sometimes works in clearly miraculous ways, and sometimes God works in ways that appear utterly mundane. Elijah saw God send down fire from heaven when he defeated the prophets of Baal, but later God spoke to him through the still small voice rather than the wind and the fire.

I remember my decision to leave the church I had truly believed was supposed to be my home church, based very much on similar butchering of Scripture and what can only be described as a total disconnect from reality. This was a church that preached prosperity but couldn't pay its bills, a church that declared deliverance but was permanently needy, and a church where people declared themselves healed (present tense, not a belief that they would be healed) while going to the doctor for the condition they allegedly no longer had.

So my question to a Christian would simply be... Church suggestions? lol

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Focus on what is most important, and accept that no church will necessarily tick every box you would like ticked. The church I currently attend doesn't match everything I'd like from a church, but it does match everything that's particularly important. The teaching is sound and Scriptural, the pastor is a very humble man and certainly doesn't consider himself above being asked questions about what he has preached. The fellowship is good and the church is open to new ideas, and open to ideas from new people. The style of service is more conservative than I would choose - the church in general is more conservative than I would choose (I'm naturally inclined towards more contemporary music) but I can live with things that don't perfectly align with my preferences - it's not all about me.

Personally I'd suggest you focus on the teaching first and foremost. If the teaching deviates badly from Scripture, look elsewhere. If it's some minor point and the minister can explain why they do what they do, that may not be an issue. If it's something fundamental about the nature of God, the nature of Jesus Christ, the nature of salvation, chances are it's time to find a different church. If it's a church that drifts (or has drifted) from being somewhat charismatic to being somewhat New Age, chances are it's time to find a different church.

Since you, like me, seem to have a leaning towards things that are more charismatic one other thing I'd encourage you to test is just what happens when you "feel God's presence". If you only "feel God's presence" after an extended time of upbeat and repetitive music, there's a good chance what you're actually feeling is a natural state of euphoria that happens when we listen to upbeat music. If you also feel God's presence during times of silent reflection, times of prayer, there's a better chance that it's real. If you go to church seeking another "hit" because you only ever "feel God's presence" on a Sunday morning and by Monday morning it has faded, that's not a good sign. If you are guided by how often you "feel God's presence" that's also not a good sign - God promised he would be with us regardless of whether or not we get that warm fuzzy feeling.

I hope you can find a church that meets your needs. If you have questions about a church's teaching you're always welcome to ask them here, although you'll need to read through replies from many different perspectives to conclude which one you find most appropriate.

Many of us here have changed denominations. For ME, it was Catholic to Lutheran.

For ME, it was a painful thing. It meant leaving my family and a church I loved and people I loved.

For ME, the issue was primarily being required to believe things (dogmatically) that I did not. Things like the INFALLIBILITY of the Roman Pontiff and of the individual RC Denomination, Purgatory, Transubstantiation (rather than Real Presence), Christianity as a denomination, etc. BUT I probably agreed with 95% of what I was taught (my pastor said, "Josiah, that's MUCH better than most Catholics" and he was right!), and there was MUCH that I treasured and loved (liturgical worship, a keen sense of history and tradition, a strong pro-life stance among them). But I felt like a hypocrite implying that I was Catholic when clearly (and admittedly) I was not: I struggled with the lie. I was specifically told (repeatedly) by our Deacon and by the people who worked with youth that a Catholic is one who swallows whole WHATEVER the individual RC Denomination (formally) says BECAUSE it itself currently does, or such is not a Catholic. I discovered they were right.... so I no longer regarded myself as Catholic.


It left me very much ALONE. I felt that profoundly. And a keen sense of grief. I thank God that I didn't stay adrift for long..... a friend invited me to a Lutheran church (first a pretty high church ELCA church but I quickly moved over to an LCMS one) - and I found a home fairly quickly; there wasn't much church shopping. At first, it seemed like "Catholic Light" (a view many Catholics have of Lutherans) but I soon came to appreciate the "Theology of the Cross" and the Law/Gospel distinction.... and a much clearer understanding of justification; I became LUTHERAN.


Since, I have meet good Orthodox and conservative Anglican friends..... and my wife comes out of conservative Calvinist/Reformed background (She's now Lutheran)..... and I can respect a lot in those traditions, too. And I have no ill feelings toward the RCC. I was richly blessed there and I'm thankful for my time there. The RCC may be wrong about a few things but I regard it as a valid and good denomination.



- Josiah

Josiah said:

Many of us here have changed denominations. For ME, it was Catholic to Lutheran.

For ME, it was a painful thing. It meant leaving my family and a church I loved and people I loved.

For ME, the issue was primarily being required to believe things (dogmatically) that I did not. Things like the INFALLIBILITY of the Roman Pontiff and of the individual RC Denomination, Purgatory, Transubstantiation (rather than Real Presence), Christianity as a denomination, etc. BUT I probably agreed with 95% of what I was taught (my pastor said, "Josiah, that's MUCH better than most Catholics" and he was right!), and there was MUCH that I treasured and loved (liturgical worship, a keen sense of history and tradition, a strong pro-life stance among them). But I felt like a hypocrite implying that I was Catholic when clearly (and admittedly) I was not: I struggled with the lie. I was specifically told (repeatedly) by our Deacon and by the people who worked with youth that a Catholic is one who swallows whole WHATEVER the individual RC Denomination (formally) says BECAUSE it itself currently does, or such is not a Catholic. I discovered they were right.... so I no longer regarded myself as Catholic.


It left me very much ALONE. I felt that profoundly. And a keen sense of grief. I thank God that I didn't stay adrift for long..... a friend invited me to a Lutheran church (first a pretty high church ELCA church but I quickly moved over to an LCMS one) - and I found a home fairly quickly; there wasn't much church shopping. At first, it seemed like "Catholic Light" (a view many Catholics have of Lutherans) but I soon came to appreciate the "Theology of the Cross" and the Law/Gospel distinction.... and a much clearer understanding of justification; I became LUTHERAN.


Since, I have meet good Orthodox and conservative Anglican friends..... and my wife comes out of conservative Calvinist/Reformed background (She's now Lutheran)..... and I can respect a lot in those traditions, too. And I have no ill feelings toward the RCC. I was richly blessed there and I'm thankful for my time there. The RCC may be wrong about a few things but I regard it as a valid and good denomination.



- Josiah

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An excellent testimony and admittedly similar to my own, although not exactly the same. I was born and raised in a Southern Baptist Church, that I found void of tradition and more interested in proving things " scientifically" than taking things on faith ( this was before the fundamentalists took control of the SBC from the moderates). I found too many conflicts between what the Bible said and what Baptist theology stated, so I went to the Catholic Church in 1995, where I stayed until 2012. I began questioning the Catholic Church when I moved to Jacksonville and found that there was a decidedly different emphasis in the Diocese of St. Augustine than there was in the Diocese of Arlington. I prayed for discernment and that prayer led me to calling an LCMS church, where I spoke to the Pastor. That Sunday, I began attending services at Hope Lutheran Church in Jacksonville, Florida. In early 2013, I took New Membership Classes and was received into the Lutheran Church late that February. The people of that church ( and the LCMS church I attend now, Hope Lutheran in Manassas, Virginia) are some of the finest Christians I've ever known. When I came back home to Virginia 2014, I transferred my membership to Hope Lutheran Church in Manassas in short order. God has truly blessed me in so many ways since the Holy Spirit led me to Hope that I can only live in gratitude to He Who saved me.

If you got that niggling in your head that your church isn't the right place to be then follow that and seek a new place to worship as it's showin your thirst for knowledge and maybe you aren't being fed enough where you are now.

We had a woman who was bipolar. She got prayer and kept taking her meds, less and less til the psychiater said she was healed and didn't need em anymore.

TurtleHare said:

If you got that niggling in your head that your church isn't the right place to be then follow that and seek a new place to worship as it's showin your thirst for knowledge and maybe you aren't being fed enough where you are now.

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I think that's a mistake though to expect the church services to fulfill his thirst for knowledge. Since we are all able to study the Bible on our own and have many of the same resources that the pastor would

jsimms435 said:

I think that's a mistake though to expect the church services to fulfill his thirst for knowledge. Since we are all able to study the Bible on our own and have many of the same resources that the pastor would

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Very true, certainly the vast majority of adults are able to do their own Bible study. I would say a church that teaches soundly from Scripture is important because, if nothing else, it helps keep speculative theologies that may arise from pondering ideas and seeing if they stand up against Scriptural testing ca be more thoroughly tested.

Although we can feed ourselves spiritually to a point it is important that a church is a part of the process. The church I described above that I left wasn't feeding anything that was useful, especially since so much of what they claimed was very evidently not true. Someone who actually believed what they were saying would most likely go home and start declaring things, then start losing faith when it became abundantly clear that the things they declared did not come to pass. Using the analogy of progressing from milk to meat, this place was serving McDonalds and people were apparently lapping it up thinking it was meat.

tango said:

Very true, certainly the vast majority of adults are able to do their own Bible study. I would say a church that teaches soundly from Scripture is important because, if nothing else, it helps keep speculative theologies that may arise from pondering ideas and seeing if they stand up against Scriptural testing ca be more thoroughly tested.

Although we can feed ourselves spiritually to a point it is important that a church is a part of the process. The church I described above that I left wasn't feeding anything that was useful, especially since so much of what they claimed was very evidently not true. Someone who actually believed what they were saying would most likely go home and start declaring things, then start losing faith when it became abundantly clear that the things they declared did not come to pass. Using the analogy of progressing from milk to meat, this place was serving McDonalds and people were apparently lapping it up thinking it was meat.

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I actually think it is rarely that you get what you called "meat" from most pulpits today. Maybe more so from Bible study time or Sunday School time. I think that is reflected in the lack of knowledge that most church members seem to have about the Bible.

SADLY, there seems to be a universal tread of lay ignorance.....


A Presbyterian minister once posted that the great majority of Presbyterians think that "TULIP" is a pretty flower and have no clue what Calvin taught - about anything. They haven't been taught because they don't care (and likely, nor does their minister).


My own Lutheran pastor commented that the typical adult confirmation class is a few hours long (maybe only 3). His is 5 months long (that's what I participated in) but he freely admitted it's hard to get laity to agree to this.


SADLY a good part of why Christians get along so well..... a good part of why they switch denominations so often and easily.... is because they have little to no knowledge of Christian theology and what these various denominations once stood for (and still officially proclaim). Part of the appeal of the non-denoms is that they don't CLAIM to teach much of anything ("We just teach Jesus" is the creed of my brother's church) but I don't think a LOT of denominational churches teach much either. One of the things I like about SOME websites (like this one) is that we find people who care about theology and who (somehow) learned about the theology of their denomination.


This ignorance has blurred the lines. It's very rare to find a Catholic who knows a thing about Transubstantiation because their denomination doesn't teach it's own dogma about the Eucharist anymore (it teaches something more like a mixture of the EOC and Lutheran positions) so it's understandable to find Catholics who don't even know their denomination's own dogma. Purgatory isn't taught anymore either (certainly never mentioned at Catholic funerals), the Infallibility of the RCC's Pope is hardly mentioned either. Reformed churches rarely teach double predestination or limited atonement anymore but much of their theology is a mixture "Evangelicalism" and liberalism these days (at least in the USA). All this, IMO, is a result of relativism that has infected the church, and a desire to put hind ends in the seats (and the less you teach them, the less they can object to, and the easier you make it, the more likely they'll do it: Point, gain a member - however ignorant). Laity who are theologically trained are likely to have done it themselves, likely via the internet and perhaps with books - not via their church. Sad, I think.



- Josiah

jsimms435 said:

I actually think it is rarely that you get what you called "meat" from most pulpits today. Maybe more so from Bible study time or Sunday School time. I think that is reflected in the lack of knowledge that most church members seem to have about the Bible.

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Yes cause ppl dont pay and expect a pastor to have a job and do some pastoring extra for free, at least here in Holland. One pastor I had had a 60 hour job. He gave a nice talk on sunday, but that was it. Can't blame him. You have no energy left to also spend hours for Bible studies. Cant believe they dont have good churches in America though. The Bible school he went to was American. Nobody here in evangelical churches knows that stuff unless they go to a Bible school in America themselves. We get good food, but actually any other church I attended they didnt have that. He just gives Bible school lessons.