Born of water and the Spirit.

MoreCoffee said:

There is plenty of typology in the holy scriptures but isn't it usual that the type is in the old testament and the reality is in the new? I am very sure that "I am telling you the truth," replied Jesus, "that no one can enter the Kingdom of God without being born of water and the Spirit." is in the new testament alone. But tell me, why can't water just be water in the verse? The verse allows for that. Just like the verse allows "the Spirit" to just be "the Spirit" without any symbolism attached.

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It still doesnt support the rule that at least one religious denomination concocts and teaches and ppl make believe that that verse refers to water-baptism.

MoreCoffee said:

I do not think so. Water is water. It can have symbolic meaning if somebody wants it to but Jesus said "born of water and the Spirit" which doesn't seem like he was trying to use symbolic water and Spirit. He was explaining birth from above to Nicodemus. Nicodemus didn't get it in verse 4. So Jesus spells it out in the following verses.

John 3:3-15 Jesus answered: In all truth I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above. [4] Nicodemus said, 'How can anyone who is already old be born? Is it possible to go back into the womb again and be born?' [5] Jesus replied: In all truth I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born through water and the Spirit; [6] what is born of human nature is human; what is born of the Spirit is spirit. [7] Do not be surprised when I say: You must be born from above. [8] The wind blows where it pleases; you can hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit. [9] 'How is that possible?' asked Nicodemus. [10] Jesus replied, 'You are the Teacher of Israel, and you do not know these things! [11] 'In all truth I tell you, we speak only about what we know and witness only to what we have seen and yet you people reject our evidence. [12] If you do not believe me when I speak to you about earthly things, how will you believe me when I speak to you about heavenly things? [13] No one has gone up to heaven except the one who came down from heaven, the Son of man; [14] as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so must the Son of man be lifted up [15] so that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.
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You enter through the Word and the Spirit. One guy said water is eternal life. The woman at the well got saved. He gave her water, not natural water.
They used living water for baptism. I think water means eternal life. Water gives life if you drink it in the natural and in the spiritual and it cleanses in the natural and spiritual.

Sacramentally the “living water” is represented through the waters of baptism.

http://catholicphilly.com/2014/03/t...god-gives-the-water-we-need-for-eternal-life/

MoreCoffee said:

I think water means water in John 3:5

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Good for you. John3:5 doesnt mean water-baptism.

MoreCoffee said:

It refers to water

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Brilliant.
John3:5 still has nothing to do with water baptism.

Lämmchen said:

Why would God institute an ordinance where He was not actively involved?

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Who ever said He did? And what's that got to do with a denomination or individual falsely teaching that John3:5 is about water-baptism?

MoreCoffee said:

I do not think so. Water is water. It can have symbolic meaning if somebody wants it to but Jesus said "born of water and the Spirit" which doesn't seem like he was trying to use symbolic water and Spirit. He was explaining birth from above to Nicodemus. Nicodemus didn't get it in verse 4. So Jesus spells it out in the following verses.

John 3:3-15 Jesus answered: In all truth I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above. [4] Nicodemus said, 'How can anyone who is already old be born? Is it possible to go back into the womb again and be born?' [5] Jesus replied: In all truth I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born through water and the Spirit; [6] what is born of human nature is human; what is born of the Spirit is spirit. [7] Do not be surprised when I say: You must be born from above. [8] The wind blows where it pleases; you can hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit. [9] 'How is that possible?' asked Nicodemus. [10] Jesus replied, 'You are the Teacher of Israel, and you do not know these things! [11] 'In all truth I tell you, we speak only about what we know and witness only to what we have seen and yet you people reject our evidence. [12] If you do not believe me when I speak to you about earthly things, how will you believe me when I speak to you about heavenly things? [13] No one has gone up to heaven except the one who came down from heaven, the Son of man; [14] as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so must the Son of man be lifted up [15] so that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.
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At the time Jesus said those words, the only 'water baptism' was John's OT ceremonial baptism of repentence. Will THAT baptism with water get one into the kingdom of God? John said that it was only a preparation for one coming later.

If Jesus meant the Christian baptism in the name of the crucified and resurrected Christ, then how could he have expected Nicodemus to understand that (John 3:10).

atpollard said:

At the time Jesus said those words, the only 'water baptism' was John's OT ceremonial baptism of repentence. Will THAT baptism with water get one into the kingdom of God? John said that it was only a preparation for one coming later. If Jesus meant the Christian baptism in the name of the crucified and resurrected Christ, then how could he have expected Nicodemus to understand that (John 3:10).

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I accept as a credible opinion that Jesus may not have SPECIFICALLY had CHRISTIAN Baptism in mind here (and certainly Nicodemus would not have so understood it). But perhaps He was noting that birth tends to involve water and God .... He may well have been looking forward to the Gift He would institute, Christian Baptism.

I think Jesus' POINT was that life is a GIFT of God, the activity of God. Our physical birth and our spiritual birth. GOD causes it, GOD does it, GOD gives it. This is the point Nicodemus doesn't seem to "get" since as a Jew at that time, he's LOCKED into the idea that it's all OUR works, our doing, our decisions (thus the silly but probably quite sincere question of whether he could crawl back into his mother's womb). Jesus is saying GOD gives birth.... GOD gives life.... And I think He is telling Nicodemus there is MYSTERY here (Nicodemus isn't going to EVER understand how this all works, how God does all this - and it doesn't matter if he understands it - it's true).

But yeah, there is that interesting point of "water." Jesus inserts that into the discussion about being BORN AGAIN. He spoke of our first birth (physical) and yeah, water is involved in that (literal water).... and then in the same thought, same point, speaks of "water" and our second birth, our gift of being "born again." He MUST have had a reason to bring water into this discussion of the Second Birth. Likely a connection there...... even though you're right: Christian baptism didn't exist YET and Nicodemus wouldn't be able to understand that EITHER ("the wind blows where it wills but you do not know......")



Soli Deo Gloria


- Josiah

Josiah said:

I accept as a credible opinion that Jesus may not have SPECIFICALLY had CHRISTIAN Baptism in mind here (and certainly Nicodemus would not have so understood it). But perhaps He was noting that birth tends to involve water and God .... He may well have been looking forward to the Gift He would institute, Christian Baptism.

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In this paragraph you are projecting your desired belief upon the text and working to make it fit. There is nothing in the text to support your surmising.

I think Jesus' POINT was that life is a GIFT of God, the activity of God. Our physical birth and our spiritual birth. GOD causes it, GOD does it, GOD gives it. This is the point Nicodemus doesn't seem to "get" since as a Jew at that time, he's LOCKED into the idea that it's all OUR works, our doing, our decisions (thus the silly but probably quite sincere question of whether he could crawl back into his mother's womb). Jesus is saying GOD gives birth.... GOD gives life.... And I think He is telling Nicodemus there is MYSTERY here (Nicodemus isn't going to EVER understand how this all works, how God does all this - and it doesn't matter if he understands it - it's true).

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Here we agree. Jesus is clearly saying that just as we have no control over our physical conception and birth so we have no control over our spiritual conception and birth. Sola gratia.

But yeah, there is that interesting point of "water." Jesus inserts that into the discussion about being BORN AGAIN. He spoke of our first birth (physical) and yeah, water is involved in that (literal water).... and then in the same thought, same point, speaks of "water" and our second birth, our gift of being "born again." He MUST have had a reason to bring water into this discussion of the Second Birth. Likely a connection there...... even though you're right: Christian baptism didn't exist YET and Nicodemus wouldn't be able to understand that EITHER ("the wind blows where it wills but you do not know......")

Soli Deo Gloria

- Josiah

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This last question gives strength to the idea that Jesus is connecting the new covenant concept in Ezekiel, water as ceremonial cleansung, to the cleansing by the Spirit.
The weakest argument is the idea that water baptism is applied to this passage.
I am glad we are looking specifically at the text. Iron sharpens iron.