The washing of water with the word.

MoreCoffee

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Ephesians 5:26 that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,

[Cambridge]
Ephesians 5:26

sanctify and cleanse it] Better, again, her. And the pronoun is slightly emphatic by position; as if to say, It was in her interest that He did this, and so in the wife's interest the husband should be ready for sacrifice.
Sanctify and cleanse:—lit., sanctify, cleansing; both the verbs being in the aorist, and being thus most naturally referred to one and same crisis, not, as R.V. seems to imply, (sanctify, having cleansed,) to a sanctifying process consequent on a cleansing. The Church was decisively sanctified, separated from the claim and dominion of sin unto God, when she was decisively cleansed, accepted as guiltless.

It needs remembrance that the word to sanctify lends itself equally, according to context, to ideas of crisis and of process. In one aspect the human being, decisively claimed and regenerated by God for Himself, is sanctified. In another aspect, in view of each successive subjective experience of renunciation of self for God, he is being sanctified.sanctifying crisis here in view is that of regeneration. This is put before us ideally as the regeneration of the Church. The Idea is realized historically in the regeneration of individuals, with a view to the final total.this individual aspect of the matter, cp. Joh 3:3; Joh 3:5; 1Co 6:11.

with the washing of water] Lit., by the laver of the water. So Tit 3:5; through the laver of regeneration, the only other N.T. passage where the noun rendered laver occurs.

Here, undoubtedly, Holy Baptism is referred to. It is another and most important question, what is the precise bearing of the Rite upon regeneration; whether it is the special channel of infusion of the new life, or its federal and legal conveyance, the Seal upon the Covenant of it, and upon the actual grant of it. But in any case there is a connexion, divinely established, between Regeneration and Baptism. For ourselves, we hold that Baptism is a true analogue to the sacrament of Circumcision, and that its direct and essential work is that of a Divine seal. This view we believe to be (1) the view in truest harmony with the whole spirit of the Gospel, (2) the view most consonant with observed facts, (3) the view which, under wide varieties of expression, was held, in essence, by the pre-medieval Church (and not wholly forgotten even in the medieval Church), and by the great Anglican Protestant doctors of the 16th and 17th centuries. But it is to be remembered that this view leaves untouched the fact of a profound and sacred connexion between New Birth and Baptism. And it is entirely consonant with language of high reverence and honour for the Rite, language often applicable, properly, only to the related Blessing, under remembrance that the Rite derives all its greatness from the spiritual Reality to which it stands related.

by the word] Quite lit., in utterance, or in an utterance. The Gr. is rh, not logos. We may translate (having regard to the N. T. usage of in, similar cases), attended by, or conditioned by, an utterance: as if to say, not a mere laver of water, but one which is what it is only as joined to declared truth.is the utterance in question? The Gr. word (in the singular), occurs elsewhere in the Epistles, Rom 10:8; Rom 10:17; 2Co 13:1, below, Eph 6:17; Heb 1:3; Heb 6:5; Heb 11:3; 1Pe 1:25 (twice). In almost every case it refers to a definite Divine utterance, whether of truth or of will. We explain it here accordingly as the utterance of that New Covenant of the Gospel of which Baptism is the seal, or, to put it more generally, the revelation of salvation embodied in the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost (Mat 28:19), or in the Name of the Lord Jesus (Act 19:5). Baptism, in connexion with that revelation and the reception of it, is the laver of new birth(Tit 3:5).

Cp. the parallel 1Pe 3:21; in which we see the same care to correct any possible inferences from the material aspect of Baptism, as if the rite itself, apart from the moral surroundings of the rite, were a saving thing.
 

Imalive

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John 15:3

You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you.

3 witnesses on earth
literal water cant speak or witness. The Word can.
 

user1234

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John 15:3

You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you.

3 witnesses on earth
literal water cant speak or witness. The Word can.
interesting take on it. I hit like. :)
 

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mcoffee, you probably know its not good to take a text from a subtext out of context to try to make a prooftext to support a pretext.
 

Imalive

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interesting take on it. I hit like. :)

I don't think it's correct though.
Spurgeon says:

The next abiding witness in the church is the water—not the water of baptism, but the new life implanted in Christians, for that is the sense in which John's Master had used the word "water": "The water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up unto everlasting life."

The bride testifies too.
 

user1234

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I don't think it's correct though.
Spurgeon says:

The next abiding witness in the church is the water—not the water of baptism, but the new life implanted in Christians, for that is the sense in which John's Master had used the word "water": "The water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up unto everlasting life."

The bride testifies too.
Yes, thats why i said 'interesting take, lol'. Lol

I dont know why ppl are having such a hard time understanding that we're saved by grace, apart from any works, including that 'Monopoly Utility' :;;D:
 

Josiah

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Ephesians 5:26 that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,

[Cambridge]
Ephesians 5:26

sanctify and cleanse it] Better, again, her. And the pronoun is slightly emphatic by position; as if to say, It was in her interest that He did this, and so in the wife's interest the husband should be ready for sacrifice.
Sanctify and cleanse:—lit., sanctify, cleansing; both the verbs being in the aorist, and being thus most naturally referred to one and same crisis, not, as R.V. seems to imply, (sanctify, having cleansed,) to a sanctifying process consequent on a cleansing. The Church was decisively sanctified, separated from the claim and dominion of sin unto God, when she was decisively cleansed, accepted as guiltless.

It needs remembrance that the word to sanctify lends itself equally, according to context, to ideas of crisis and of process. In one aspect the human being, decisively claimed and regenerated by God for Himself, is sanctified. In another aspect, in view of each successive subjective experience of renunciation of self for God, he is being sanctified.sanctifying crisis here in view is that of regeneration. This is put before us ideally as the regeneration of the Church. The Idea is realized historically in the regeneration of individuals, with a view to the final total.this individual aspect of the matter, cp. Joh 3:3; Joh 3:5; 1Co 6:11.

with the washing of water] Lit., by the laver of the water. So Tit 3:5; through the laver of regeneration, the only other N.T. passage where the noun rendered laver occurs.

Here, undoubtedly, Holy Baptism is referred to. It is another and most important question, what is the precise bearing of the Rite upon regeneration; whether it is the special channel of infusion of the new life, or its federal and legal conveyance, the Seal upon the Covenant of it, and upon the actual grant of it. But in any case there is a connexion, divinely established, between Regeneration and Baptism. For ourselves, we hold that Baptism is a true analogue to the sacrament of Circumcision, and that its direct and essential work is that of a Divine seal. This view we believe to be (1) the view in truest harmony with the whole spirit of the Gospel, (2) the view most consonant with observed facts, (3) the view which, under wide varieties of expression, was held, in essence, by the pre-medieval Church (and not wholly forgotten even in the medieval Church), and by the great Anglican Protestant doctors of the 16th and 17th centuries. But it is to be remembered that this view leaves untouched the fact of a profound and sacred connexion between New Birth and Baptism. And it is entirely consonant with language of high reverence and honour for the Rite, language often applicable, properly, only to the related Blessing, under remembrance that the Rite derives all its greatness from the spiritual Reality to which it stands related.

by the word] Quite lit., in utterance, or in an utterance. The Gr. is rh, not logos. We may translate (having regard to the N. T. usage of in, similar cases), attended by, or conditioned by, an utterance: as if to say, not a mere laver of water, but one which is what it is only as joined to declared truth.is the utterance in question? The Gr. word (in the singular), occurs elsewhere in the Epistles, Rom 10:8; Rom 10:17; 2Co 13:1, below, Eph 6:17; Heb 1:3; Heb 6:5; Heb 11:3; 1Pe 1:25 (twice). In almost every case it refers to a definite Divine utterance, whether of truth or of will. We explain it here accordingly as the utterance of that New Covenant of the Gospel of which Baptism is the seal, or, to put it more generally, the revelation of salvation embodied in the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost (Mat 28:19), or in the Name of the Lord Jesus (Act 19:5). Baptism, in connexion with that revelation and the reception of it, is the laver of new birth(Tit 3:5).

Cp. the parallel 1Pe 3:21; in which we see the same care to correct any possible inferences from the material aspect of Baptism, as if the rite itself, apart from the moral surroundings of the rite, were a saving thing.



Well presented.


I largely agree.
 

Josiah

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I dont know why ppl are having such a hard time understanding that we're saved by grace, apart from any works


I don't think there's ANYTHING that MoreCoffee posted that remotely suggests otherwise.....


I passionately believe that salvation is entirely, wholly the work and gift of Jesus Alone - all of it (Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide). However, that does not mean that God is disallowed, forbidden to use anyone or anything in which to deliver that gift. It doesn't mean that God is only permitted to give that gift by just ZIPPING them out of the clear blue sky, forbidden to do otherwise. Of course, He CAN do that (I hate to tell God what He can't do) - and I can think of at least one example in the Bible where He did (John the Baptist who was filled with the Holy Spirit, given faith and testified of taht before he was even born) - but is God forbidden to give His gift or to bless in any other way? I don't think so. And if DOES ever does use people and or things as His tools, His "delivery means," does that make it any less His doing? If a carpenter uses a hammer to build a house, does that mean the carpenter didn't build the house? If the mailman delivers my gift to you, does that mean I didn't give you a gift?



Thank you!


- Josiah




.
 
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Imalive

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Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way?” The answer is this, “By taking heed thereto according to thy word.

“Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.” ~ John 17:17

I Peter 1:22-23:
Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, having been born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, through the word of God, which lives and abides forever.
 

Imalive

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How does Jesus make us holy?
With a one time baptism or daily w the Word?
 

Imalive

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Zechariah 13:1
1 “In that day a fountain will be opened for the house of David and for the inhabitants of Jerusalem, for sin and for impurity.

This imply that this fountain will be used for the purification of sin and impurity. The Hebrew word “maqor” is used here, meaning a source:

5227 מָקוֹר (mā·qôr): n.masc.; ≡ Str 4726; TWOT 2004a— 1. LN 47.1–47.7 flow, i.e., that which is a movement of a mass of liquid or fluid (Lev 12:7+); 2. LN 80.5–80.7 source, i.e., that which is the spatial beginning of a direction or path (Lev 20:18+); 3. LN 68.1–68.10 source, formally, fountain, i.e., that which is the origin or beginning of a state or time (Ps 36:10[EB 9]; Pr 10:11; 13:14; 14:27; 16:22; 18:4+); 4. LN 1.69–1.78 well, spring, fountain, i.e., a relatively small body of water on the surface or just below ground, with the associative meanings of life and cleansing associated with clean water (Pr 5:18; 25:26; Jer 2:13; 17:13; 51:36; Hos 13:15; Zec 13:1+); 5. LN 11.12–11.54 assembly, formally, fountain, i.e., a socio-religious group, as a figurative extension of a pool of fresh water (Ps 68:27[EB 26]+); 6. LN 59.11–59.22 much, formally, fountain, i.e., a relatively great quantity of a mass as a figurative extension of a fountain as a body of water (Jer 8:23[EB 9:1]+1
Wait a minute, we see here that this fountain is the source, and this source of living water is for taking away impurity AND sin. This is more profound than you probably realize… is this really a physical fountain?

YHVH, our hope, the source of living water

Let us just go a few steps back. Where in Scripture do we get other references about a fountain? YHVH calls Himself the fountain of living waters. Nahal David_small

Jeremiah 2:13
13 “For My people have committed two evils: They have forsaken Me, The fountain of living waters, To hew for themselves cisterns, Broken cisterns That can hold no water.

YHVH is the fountain, the source of living water. He cleanses us from our sin; we are not cleansed by our works. Wait, there is even more…

Jeremiah 17:13
13 O YHVH, the hope of Israel, All who forsake You will be put to shame. Those who turn away on earth will be written down, Because they have forsaken the fountain of living water, even YHVH.

Do you see this? Do you know which Hebrew word was translated as “hope?” It is “miqwah!” YHVH is the hope (miqwah in Hebrew); He is also the fountain (source) of living water. So every time we immerse ourselves in water, it is symbolic of how YHVH purifies us. This is indeed very profound! YHVH is our mikvah! He cleanses and purifies us! It is not our act of immersing ourselves that cleanses us, this act is only symbolic of YHVH cleansing us!

http://www.setapartpeople.com/mikvah-part-1-spiritual-cleansing
 

user1234

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Yes, thats why i said 'interesting take, lol'. Lol

I dont know why ppl are having such a hard time understanding that we're saved by grace, apart from any works, including that 'Monopoly Utility' :;;D:
And where do they get the idea that John 3:3 (must be born again) has anything to do with water-baptism?

Re: the OP ... Ephesians is another book/letter where ppl often take things out of context, takjng a verse here or there and pairing it w other verses from other books to try to prove a point.

But it's a beautiful letter that really should be read straight through (its not that long).

If you look at the Chapter breaks, the START (verse1) of each chapter, refers you to the previous chapter, and to just start in the middle somewhere really breaks up the flow of the overall intent. (I realize its not always easy to cover everthing in one sitting, especially when you study verse-by-verse, you see how much gold there is to mine from this wonderful little letter)
But it really does build upon itself with great praise, doctrine, exortation, how to walk, stand, it covers singles, marrieds, parents, children, employers/employees, warfare, prayer, evangelism, worship and ends with a beautiful benediction and gift from Our God and Saviour.

It really can make the heart soar, and just picking out a verse or two to make a point is kind of deflating, imo.

Chapter 6:1 starts: Children, obey ... So sure, you COULD start there, but Ch5 ended with husbands and wives, so theyre linked.

Chapter5:1 starts: Be ye THEREFORE followers of God ... The word THEREFORE basically means 'because of what you just read' so it's because of Ch4.

Chapter4:1 starts: I THEREFORE, the prisoner of the Lord, Beseech you ... So Paul beseeches us based on what we just read in Ch3.

Chapter3:1 starts: For this cause ... (kinda like Therefore, lol) then he adds more to what we just read in Ch up til v13, then in 14 he says it again, For this cause ... pointing back to Ch2:1-3:13.

Chapter2 starts: AND ... Lol, so thats a pretty good link to Ch1, which we should have just read as well.

My point of putting this in this thread is bc of the OP STARTS w Ephesians 5:26.
But the foundation laid earlier in the chapter is vital, and whats in 5 links to 4...to 3...etc.
That verse doesnt really make a case for individuals, (let alone babies), getting water-baptised, and pairing it with verses from John 3 that have nothing to do with water-baptism (they're about being born again) only confuses things, imo.
 

user1234

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I don't think there's ANYTHING that MoreCoffee posted that remotely suggests otherwise.....


I passionately believe that salvation is entirely, wholly the work and gift of Jesus Alone - all of it (Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide). However, that does not mean that God is disallowed, forbidden to use anyone or anything in which to deliver that gift. It doesn't mean that God is only permitted to give that gift by just ZIPPING them out of the clear blue sky, forbidden to do otherwise. Of course, He CAN do that (I hate to tell God what He can't do) - and I can think of at least one example in the Bible where He did (John the Baptist who was filled with the Holy Spirit, given faith and testified of taht before he was even born) - but is God forbidden to give His gift or to bless in any other way? I don't think so. And if DOES ever does use people and or things as His tools, His "delivery means," does that make it any less His doing? If a carpenter uses a hammer to build a house, does that mean the carpenter didn't build the house? If the mailman delivers my gift to you, does that mean I didn't give you a gift?



Thank you!


- Josiah




.
Dear Josiah ... Where and why do you keep coming out with these ideas that ppl here are prohibitting God w restrictions and cannots, etc., it's like its becoming an obsession with you. Forbidden, disallowed, its like youre on a mission to find every synonym for it, and then insert the same thing into all your posts and imply that ppl here are trying to prohibit God and/or you somehow.
Holding God to what He Himself did for us and declares in His own Word is not putting any restrictions on God or man that He hasn't already done so Himself.Does it have to be written in big bold red letters?

[SIZE=+2]No one here is telling God what He is allowed or not allowed to do and no one is telling you you're not permitted to baptise your baby if thats what you want to do, okay?​[/SIZE]
 

Imalive

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Dear Josiah ... Where and why do you keep coming out with these ideas that ppl here are prohibitting God w restrictions and cannots, etc., it's like its becoming an obsession with you. Forbidden, disallowed, its like youre on a mission to find every synonym for it, and then insert the same thing into all your posts and imply that ppl here are trying to prohibit God and/or you somehow.
Holding God to what He Himself did for us and declares in His own Word is not putting any restrictions on God or man that He hasn't already done so Himself.Does it have to be written in big bold red letters?

[SIZE=+2]No one here is telling God what He is allowed or not allowed to do and no one is telling you you're not permitted to baptise your baby if thats what you want to do, okay?​[/SIZE]

LOL you mad bro?
 

MoreCoffee

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[SIZE=+2]No one here is telling God what He is allowed or not allowed to do and no one is telling you you're not permitted to baptise your baby if thats what you want to do, okay?​[/SIZE]

I want to baptise other people's babies; muhahahahaha

:smirk:
 
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user1234

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I want to baptise other people's babies; muhahahahaha

:smirk:

I came home from church tonight and the following (see * below↓) was in my home in-box.
Im guessing it was part of the original post here ↑ , and then deleted out and changed to the one now posted. Rather cowardly.

It's also a dirtbag thing to say to somebody you know nothing about re: their background or their children. Funny...A while back I received one similar, the person telling me they prayed that I never did or will father any children. Nice.

Oh, and a person earlier today deleted a portion of one of my posts.
The violation? I posted that I was praying for a RomanCatholics salvation, and I was told its against company policy. That we are supposed to assume that a person is already a christian if theyre posting in certain threads identifying them as such, ... No sharing the gospel with self-identifying christians. It's obvious why.

*Here's the post from inbox:↓
*Snerfle,


MoreCoffee has just replied to a thread you have subscribed to entitled - The washing of water with the word. - in the Christian Theology forum of Christianity Haven.

This thread is located at:
http://www.christianityhaven.com/showthread.php?4606-The-washing-of-water-with-the-word&goto=newpost

Here is the message that has just been posted:
***************

I want to baptise YOUR baby ... muhahahaha

:smirk:
_ _ _ _ _

So far in one day, I had one sad soul accuse me of belonging to a little fringe group because I believe in Gods grace and see no need for baptizing babies, ... another one leave me a message saying he wants to baptize MY baby, ... And was told not to say I pray for a RomanCatholic member to be saved, and a person who told me he hopes I never father any children, (all on a chatforum that actually calls itself CHRISTIANITY Haven!)

Reprehensible? Disgusting? I could find a few other adjectives, but I just came home from a great night at church of worship and praying and sharing communion with 2000 genuine christian men of God, including some who just got saved tonight, and I'm so thankful Jesus saved me, I refuse to be bothered further by the puny comments of a few debators of His grace.
:spinningsmilie:
 

ImaginaryDay2

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MoreCoffee

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It was changed to avoid any appearance of inappropriate suggestion. It was just an exercise in good manners after I read the post and decided it was capable of serious misconstruction. I did not want to promote ill feeling. The edit was done very quickly, within a minute or two. At first I edited it to "..." and then gave it some thought to find a form of words that both captured the original humorous intent and was inoffensive. If you want to feel offended then that is up to you.

Yours in utmost humour,
Coward in Chief of Christianity Haven, Senior Dirtbag of Christianity Haven, and Catholic Overlord of said forum :)

I came home from church tonight and the following (see * below↓) was in my home in-box.
Im guessing it was part of the original post here ↑ , and then deleted out and changed to the one now posted. Rather cowardly.

It's also a dirtbag thing to say to somebody you know nothing about re: their background or their children. Funny...A while back I received one similar, the person telling me they prayed that I never did or will father any children. Nice.

Oh, and a person earlier today deleted a portion of one of my posts.
The violation? I posted that I was praying for a RomanCatholics salvation, and I was told its against company policy. That we are supposed to assume that a person is already a christian if theyre posting in certain threads identifying them as such, ... No sharing the gospel with self-identifying christians. It's obvious why.

*Here's the post from inbox:↓
*Snerfle,


MoreCoffee has just replied to a thread you have subscribed to entitled - The washing of water with the word. - in the Christian Theology forum of Christianity Haven.

This thread is located at:
http://www.christianityhaven.com/showthread.php?4606-The-washing-of-water-with-the-word&goto=newpost

Here is the message that has just been posted:
***************

I want to baptise YOUR baby ... muhahahaha

:smirk:
_ _ _ _ _

So far in one day, I had one sad soul accuse me of belonging to a little fringe group because I believe in Gods grace and see no need for baptizing babies, ... another one leave me a message saying he wants to baptize MY baby, ... And was told not to say I pray for a RomanCatholic member to be saved, and a person who told me he hopes I never father any children, (all on a chatforum that actually calls itself CHRISTIANITY Haven!)

Reprehensible? Disgusting? I could find a few other adjectives, but I just came home from a great night at church of worship and praying and sharing communion with 2000 genuine christian men of God, including some who just got saved tonight, and I'm so thankful Jesus saved me, I refuse to be bothered further by the puny comments of a few debators of His grace.
:spinningsmilie:
 

Lamb

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Catholics are considered Christians here on Christianity Haven. There is to be no question or debate concerning it. Back to the topic.
 
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