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    Matters Archive - Thread: Our Posting at CH

    1. #11
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      Quote Originally Posted by Lämmchen View Post
      I'm seeing a lot of these kinds of posts lately and they are not acceptable...

      If you believe ____ then you're a bladybladyblah (word changed to protect the innocent).
      I agree, but I have to say lamm, if you say that you do sound like a sheep.
      bladybladyblah hahahahahahaha

    2. #12
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      Quote Originally Posted by Snerfle View Post
      Some stuff that Snerfle said
      Quote Originally Posted by Snerfle View Post
      Some stuff that Snerfle never said
      There may be one place where some of us are at a disadvantage.

      Some folks have been on computers a long time, and know how to manipulate and crop texts and force things to appear as tho someone said or implied something that they didnt.
      What if they then report that cropped post?
      If someone changes what you wrote in their quote of you, as long as your original post remains it will show what you originally said. If someone were to report this post (i.e. my post, not the post of yours that I quoted and - ahem - misquoted to make the point) it would show your quote (although typically someone would have reported your actual post, rather than posting an edited quote). Unless the edit was very subtle the chances are we'd notice when we cleaned up the offending posts.

      If you report a post it gets copied, as is. If you write a post that says "Tango is a great guy" someone else can't edit your post and make it say "Tango is an idiot" and then report you for calling me an idiot. They can quote your post and change the quoted text (as I did above) but your original post will stand.

      Then in frustration over something, a person may reply in defense of themselves, and the next thing you know, theyre being 'reported', again, (oy!) possibly on a manipulated text, or a misunderstanding. Is there any way to ensure that wont happen?
      Ppl with savvy computer knowledge and a mean streak or a bone to pick might have all kinds of nasty tricks they pull, who knows, am I right?
      Few things can't be reversed here. I don't think I've seen anything like what you're describing here but like to think that if someone were given a staff action when they hadn't actually done anything wrong the action would be reversed and we would apologise. We're only human so it's not beyond possibility that we might make a mistake.

      But is there a way to find out if someone is going behind your back with reports/complaints, and see exactly what the post was they reported, instead of having them unknowingly accumulate? And then if the person DOES have a bad day and posts something they shouldnt have, and maybe even regret, they can try to rectify the situation, without finding out SURPRISE theres a whole bunch of other reports piled up on them to compound the situation or make the reported one appear like some horrible person?
      We can see every post that is reported and who reported it. If things get out of hand it soon becomes clear that Poster A has an issue with Poster B.

      *The first example given IN THE OP IN RED might not necessarily be flaming, it might just be an honest statement of fact, and even a comment made after an admission of such by someone in an earlier post. I'd have to see the context/full post/reason why someone made that statement before I could say for certain that it was an intent to harm or put down another member.*
      Admittedly some things may be acceptable or unacceptable depending on context but it's usually easy enough to read a post to see if "You wouldn't understand this because you haven't received the Holy Spirit" is written in a spirit of love and encouragement following someone saying something like "I haven't yet received the Holy Spirit, please help me understand" or written in a spirit of hostility following a disagreement. The difference between something that essentially means "you are a heathen" and something that essentially means "as you grow in your faith you'll understand more of this" (especially when written in a generally loving post to a new Christian) is generally not too hard to spot.
      "Do what thou will shall be the whole of the law" - Aleister Crowley

      "If you love me, obey my commandments" - Jesus Christ

      The Bible comes as a complete package. If we want to pluck verses out of context so make them mean what we want them to mean, if we want to ignore the passages that are inconvenient to our outlook, we should be intellectually honest enough to throw our Bibles in the trash and admit we are following Crowley and not Christ.

    3. Likes Lämmchen, ImaginaryDay2, Josiah liked this post
    4. #13
      Snerfle is offline Veteran Member
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      I guess I'll have to start accumulating them again, just for posterity's sake. But many from before were discarded. There were many examples, too bad now, i guess. But even recently, there have been manipulations of texts, re-quotes that only take a PIECE of the whole, which puts the quote in a different context, and makes the original poster appear to say or believe something he does not.

      They then use that chopped re-quote to build upon an already flimsy arguement ... Its just a variation of the strawman tactic. Then the first poster has to spend time claiming 'Thats not what I said' thats not what I meant' etc., virtually ending the discussion, and sadly, too many times these things are not being done to edify or bring truth or glorify God, but simply for them to win an arguement and put another notch in their belt.
      But somehow we're expected to assume 'everybodys a christian'?

      Anyway, A typical example might go like this:

      I might write, "I like the moderators but some ppl have said that ALL the moderators are jerks. I remember one time I had a spat with tango''.

      Next day, I might find someone partly re-quoted it, only the quote would say, "ALL the moderators are jerks. I remember one time I had a spat with tango". (And now my name is attached to a butchered quote)

      They simply left out the first part. Then they might reply to the quote which THEY butchered by saying, 'I disagree that ANY of the mods are jerks, and tango is especially nice'. (Do you see the subtle accusation?)

      Now youre pulled into a strawman arguement or forced to try to defend yourself over an implication that you think all mods are jerks, with tango in particular, but thats not what you said.

      (Now, this is just an example, I dont have actual posts that say that, though Im sure someone could find a way to twist even THIS example against me)

      The same thing happens with ppl taking scripture out of context, or misquoting someone elses position on scripture.

      But, I also realize that for some ppl, being on chatforums is just a game of manipulation anyway, and for some its like its their whole life, spending years and years going from place to place.

      I thought Id find some fellowship, maybe even make a friend or two, maybe even 'the one'...I really had hopes and thought so.....

      I also thought it would be a site where we could put our collective brain pieces together to help the lost find Jesus and build each other up in the faith, but it always turns into the same dogmatic arguements, which I find comes straight from the pit of the devils toolbox of religion.

      I will continue to put forth the gospel and pray for ppl to believe it, or try to expound on things to learn from scripture, bc thats what Jesus would have me to do for now.

      Either Jesus is coming soon to rapture us, or we die at the end of our alotted days, but I dont want to waste a whole lot more of His time arguing over religious doctrine and practices. Religious stuff is one of the things Jesus saved me FROM, not FOR. God bless you.
      ~Deliberate ignorance
      is anti-christian~

    5. #14
      Lämmchen's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Snerfle View Post
      I guess I'll have to start accumulating them again, just for posterity's sake. But many from before were discarded. There were many examples, too bad now, i guess. But even recently, there have been manipulations of texts, re-quotes that only take a PIECE of the whole, which puts the quote in a different context, and makes the original poster appear to say or believe something he does not.
      I just looked in the Trash bin and there is nothing recent pertaining to anything you've posted after your recent return. We do not delete posts but instead move them to the Trash so we can look at them later if need be.
      "Christianity does not require more work but more trust." Pr. Jonathan Fisk
      "Bearing fruit does not make you a branch. A branch is a branch because it grows from the vine." Pr. Jonathan Fisk
      "A Christian's life is not defined by what the Christian does. It is defined by Christ and what He has done for us." Pr. Rolf David Preus

    6. #15
      Snerfle is offline Veteran Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by Lämmchen View Post
      I just looked in the Trash bin and there is nothing recent pertaining to anything you've posted after your recent return. We do not delete posts but instead move them to the Trash so we can look at them later if need be.
      Lol, OY!!! Not MY posts that YOU .... ugh, wait, no, ones I had from the past that I discarded, you TOTALLY missed my point, but nm, its no big deal anymore, really, and wont mean much in the big picture soon, anyway.
      ~Deliberate ignorance
      is anti-christian~

    7. #16
      Lämmchen's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Snerfle View Post
      Lol, OY!!! Not MY posts, lol, you TOTALLY missed my point, but nm, its no big deal anymore, really, and wont mean much in the big picture soon, anyway.
      You misunderstood what I wrote. There are no posts quoting you since you returned that are in the trash. You should still be able to find what you claim exists here on the site. I personally would like to see them.
      "Christianity does not require more work but more trust." Pr. Jonathan Fisk
      "Bearing fruit does not make you a branch. A branch is a branch because it grows from the vine." Pr. Jonathan Fisk
      "A Christian's life is not defined by what the Christian does. It is defined by Christ and what He has done for us." Pr. Rolf David Preus

    8. #17
      tango's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Snerfle View Post
      I guess I'll have to start accumulating them again, just for posterity's sake. But many from before were discarded. There were many examples, too bad now, i guess. But even recently, there have been manipulations of texts, re-quotes that only take a PIECE of the whole, which puts the quote in a different context, and makes the original poster appear to say or believe something he does not.

      They then use that chopped re-quote to build upon an already flimsy arguement ... Its just a variation of the strawman tactic. Then the first poster has to spend time claiming 'Thats not what I said' thats not what I meant' etc., virtually ending the discussion, and sadly, too many times these things are not being done to edify or bring truth or glorify God, but simply for them to win an arguement and put another notch in their belt.
      But somehow we're expected to assume 'everybodys a christian'?

      Anyway, A typical example might go like this:

      I might write, "I like the moderators but some ppl have said that ALL the moderators are jerks. I remember one time I had a spat with tango''.

      Next day, I might find someone partly re-quoted it, only the quote would say, "ALL the moderators are jerks. I remember one time I had a spat with tango". (And now my name is attached to a butchered quote)

      They simply left out the first part. Then they might reply to the quote which THEY butchered by saying, 'I disagree that ANY of the mods are jerks, and tango is especially nice'. (Do you see the subtle accusation?)
      Someone could do that but anyone could see your original post and see how it was misquoted.

      Now youre pulled into a strawman arguement or forced to try to defend yourself over an implication that you think all mods are jerks, with tango in particular, but thats not what you said.

      (Now, this is just an example, I dont have actual posts that say that, though Im sure someone could find a way to twist even THIS example against me)
      But you're not really pulled into a strawman argument, you could easily just throw it back at the person with a simple "you know that's not what I said", quote what you originally said and leave it at that.

      The same thing happens with ppl taking scripture out of context, or misquoting someone elses position on scripture.

      But, I also realize that for some ppl, being on chatforums is just a game of manipulation anyway, and for some its like its their whole life, spending years and years going from place to place.

      I thought Id find some fellowship, maybe even make a friend or two, maybe even 'the one'...I really had hopes and thought so.....

      I also thought it would be a site where we could put our collective brain pieces together to help the lost find Jesus and build each other up in the faith, but it always turns into the same dogmatic arguements, which I find comes straight from the pit of the devils toolbox of religion.

      I will continue to put forth the gospel and pray for ppl to believe it, or try to expound on things to learn from scripture, bc thats what Jesus would have me to do for now.

      Either Jesus is coming soon to rapture us, or we die at the end of our alotted days, but I dont want to waste a whole lot more of His time arguing over religious doctrine and practices. Religious stuff is one of the things Jesus saved me FROM, not FOR. God bless you.
      That's where the best approach is to discuss with a view to finding truth rather than being proved right or winning an argument. If you and I disagree on something we can be sure that one of us is wrong. It's possible we're both wrong. It's possible the subject doesn't matter, in which case disagreement doesn't matter. (It's also possible the issue is one that's ultimately a matter of opinion rather than fact, which is a whole different kettle of fish). If you and I disagree on something and your belief is the correct one, it benefits me a whole lot more to talk around the subject and come to the conclusion that you were right. That way my worldview more accurately aligns with the actual world. I might be a really skilled debater and present an argument so convincing that you abandon the correct belief and replace it with an incorrect belief, in which case we both lose.
      "Do what thou will shall be the whole of the law" - Aleister Crowley

      "If you love me, obey my commandments" - Jesus Christ

      The Bible comes as a complete package. If we want to pluck verses out of context so make them mean what we want them to mean, if we want to ignore the passages that are inconvenient to our outlook, we should be intellectually honest enough to throw our Bibles in the trash and admit we are following Crowley and not Christ.

    9. Likes Lämmchen liked this post
    10. #18
      ImaginaryDay2's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Snerfle View Post
      I guess I'll have to start accumulating them again, just for posterity's sake. But many from before were discarded. There were many examples, too bad now, i guess. But even recently, there have been manipulations of texts, re-quotes that only take a PIECE of the whole, which puts the quote in a different context, and makes the original poster appear to say or believe something he does not.

      They then use that chopped re-quote to build upon an already flimsy arguement ... Its just a variation of the strawman tactic. Then the first poster has to spend time claiming 'Thats not what I said' thats not what I meant' etc., virtually ending the discussion, and sadly, too many times these things are not being done to edify or bring truth or glorify God, but simply for them to win an arguement and put another notch in their belt.
      I get what you are saying, and I read your example below. Anyone who has been reading a thread can follow a link to the original post of yours that was quoted and butchered to see what you really said. Typically we're pretty keen on recognizing when something sounds like "person 'X'" and when it doesn't. If someone misquoted you to say that "all mods are rat-finks" it should raise something in the reader to say "wait, that doesn't sound like Snerfle. Did he actually say that?" and link to your original (unedited) post. I do that often for context when I see that a quote has been edited.

      Quote Originally Posted by Snerfle View Post
      But somehow we're expected to assume 'everybodys a christian'?
      Can you explain how this relates to the point you're trying to make?

      Quote Originally Posted by Snerfle View Post
      I thought Id find some fellowship, maybe even make a friend or two, maybe even 'the one'...I really had hopes and thought so.....

      I also thought it would be a site where we could put our collective brain pieces together to help the lost find Jesus and build each other up in the faith, but it always turns into the same dogmatic arguements, which I find comes straight from the pit of the devils toolbox of religion.
      Honestly, no-one is immune from dogmatic beliefs - even those that think they follow no dogma. So no person or set of persons is responsible for this. Collectively we need to move away from these types of interactions, imo.

      Quote Originally Posted by Snerfle View Post
      I will continue to put forth the gospel and pray for ppl to believe it, or try to expound on things to learn from scripture, bc thats what Jesus would have me to do for now.
      As he would for any of us.

      Quote Originally Posted by Snerfle View Post
      Either Jesus is coming soon to rapture us, or we die at the end of our alotted days, but I dont want to waste a whole lot more of His time arguing over religious doctrine and practices. Religious stuff is one of the things Jesus saved me FROM, not FOR. God bless you.
      What may seem like argument for you is productive conversation for others. Personally, I would not be where I am in my faith had I not started to consider some of the things of "doctrine and practices". I couldn't even begin to explain a lot of it, and what it's meant to me personally, but I'm not sure that I would do so here for the very reason that some are so vehemently against hearing anything about it.
      I Hope This HelpsTM

    11. Likes Lämmchen liked this post
    12. #19
      Stravinsk is offline Composer and Artist on Flat Earth
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      Quote Originally Posted by Josiah View Post


      3. I've been WAY, WAY too active at a bunch of sites like CH for over 12 years .... nearly all start open but increasingly become legalistic, heavy-handed, with powerful staff and endless rules. The reason is NOT because the Admin likes that.... the reason is a FEW posters consistently acted in irresponsible ways and needed to be reigned in. The sites generally devolve into relativistic, legalistic, political places where the only fruitful discussions are about cats and spaghetti. NO ONE wants that here! Most of us are here precisely because we fled that kind of site
      It's not wise to make generalizations as to reasons or motives when in many cases it's simply not known. I'll give you an example - there was a staffer (former?) at the other site that absolutely hated me. The depth of this hatred was not known to me until, well, I was told about it by someone else who I trusted. Why did this person hate me? I'm not completely sure, although I know part of it was the unintended pressing of their buttons through some of my posts at that time. Turns out they had a serious problem and things I was posting were causing this person to become unglued. It became known to me in one of those MSC discussions. Apparently I was pushing a major button of a senior staffer without even realizing it. Is that all of it? Probably not. However I really didn't know the depth of their hatred for me until it was revealed to me by someone else. Then, lots of pieces came together.

      Meanwhile, there were other players, who above all else want to be admired, liked, looked up to, etc. Sometimes the only way to do this is to make yourself either look like a hero or a victim. Men often opt for the former and women the latter. Seeing it all for what it was and is makes my stomach turn. There were some solid individuals on that site I respected, despite faults that we all sometimes display, while there are others who continually show whom they really serve and think God does not see.

      Sometimes the legalism is in the eye and hand of the staffer. When I started getting infractions and warnings showing a clear dis-favor (I'd see others get away with saying the exact same things without punishment) - then I knew I was being targeted. I know I was not the only one. Since then I decided to troll the site a bit. Nothing really serious, but for me it was pay back time. I know I was not the only one, and as things stand, there are probably still people trolling that site because of the heavy hand of one staff member or another.

      For the sake of disclosure and forthrightness, I have not had an alternate account on that site for a very long time now, despite being fairly regularly accused by certain people who seem to *need* a villain in their lives to get all the attention they seek.

    13. #20
      Josiah's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Stravinsk View Post
      It's not wise to make generalizations as to reasons or motives when in many cases it's simply not known. I'll give you an example - there was a staffer (former?) at the other site that absolutely hated me. The depth of this hatred was not known to me until, well, I was told about it by someone else who I trusted. Why did this person hate me? I'm not completely sure, although I know part of it was the unintended pressing of their buttons through some of my posts at that time. Turns out they had a serious problem and things I was posting were causing this person to become unglued. It became known to me in one of those MSC discussions. Apparently I was pushing a major button of a senior staffer without even realizing it. Is that all of it? Probably not. However I really didn't know the depth of their hatred for me until it was revealed to me by someone else. Then, lots of pieces came together.

      Meanwhile, there were other players, who above all else want to be admired, liked, looked up to, etc. Sometimes the only way to do this is to make yourself either look like a hero or a victim. Men often opt for the former and women the latter. Seeing it all for what it was and is makes my stomach turn. There were some solid individuals on that site I respected, despite faults that we all sometimes display, while there are others who continually show whom they really serve and think God does not see.

      Sometimes the legalism is in the eye and hand of the staffer. When I started getting infractions and warnings showing a clear dis-favor (I'd see others get away with saying the exact same things without punishment) - then I knew I was being targeted. I know I was not the only one. Since then I decided to troll the site a bit. Nothing really serious, but for me it was pay back time. I know I was not the only one, and as things stand, there are probably still people trolling that site because of the heavy hand of one staff member or another.

      For the sake of disclosure and forthrightness, I have not had an alternate account on that site for a very long time now, despite being fairly regularly accused by certain people who seem to *need* a villain in their lives to get all the attention they seek.

      It's a bit off-topic to my post (which is about good posting, not good staffing) but....

      It's pretty likely ALL of us have experienced bad staffing at a site (I'm here because of that!). Happens.... And yes, I agree, one can be (relatively!!!) innocent and still get in major trouble. I'm sorry you (too) have experienced that.

      I don't want to derail this into that topic,
      but quickly, I think it helps if there's more one or two staffers making these decisions (here, staff works by consensus), if rules are few,fair and intuitive, and if the approach of staff is to do as little as is necessary. I believe all that is in place here (some may disagree) BUT I don't at all deny that mistakes can be made (only Jesus never makes mistakes). But the issue of this thread is good posting, and I believe that 99% of the time, good posting is not punished (especially here, lol).


      What do YOU think of these points?

      Quote Originally Posted by Josiah



      1. I LOVE this site.... for many reasons. But one of them is that this is a very welcoming place. Rules are very few and intuitive. Management is very tolerant and "light handed." There is a lot of freedom and liberty here.....


      2. BUT there's a flip side to this: There is a lot of personal responsibility here: We are expected to (and need to) act responsively, we need to act like adults (perhaps even like Christians, lol). The more liberty is extended, the more responsibility we have....


      3. I've been WAY, WAY too active at a bunch of sites like CH
      for over 12 years .... nearly all start open but increasingly become legalistic, heavy-handed, with powerful staff and endless rules. The reason is NOT because the Admin likes that.... the reason is a FEW posters consistently acted in irresponsible ways and needed to be reigned in. The sites generally devolve into relativistic, legalistic, political places where the only fruitful discussions are about cats and spaghetti. NO ONE wants that here! Most of us are here precisely because we fled that kind of site


      4. The GREAT, OVERWHELMING number of posts here at good. Reports are amazingly few (Staff BLESSEDLY has little to do, thanks to you!). Discussions are sometimes very controversial..... sometimes very passionate..... and this TOO is a reason I LOVE this site! It's not all milktoast.... it's not "Mr. Roger's Neighborhood." The very threads that engage ME are the ones with "meat" and where there is contraversy and passion. CH welcomes this. But these are the discussions where we ALL need to be ESPECIALLY mindful (and let it begin with me)...


      5. There are wonderful things about "social media" and discussion forums..... but there are negatives, too. The anonymity means that sometimes people treat others in ways they'd NEVER do if this were among "real" people, talking "face-to-face." I think of sites like CH much like a church; like discussion happening after the worship service in the fellowship hall with coffee and a cookie. But while such discussions can include disagreements and even passion, they are apt to be polite - because the persons are known and there's a certain social grace that is in effect as we talk face-to-face. That can disappear when we go online. And that can be problematic. I think we ALL need to remember these posters are PEOPLE. Often fellow Christians for whom Christ died and with whom we'll be spending eternity in Heaven..... Perhaps we should not type here anything we would not say face-to-face with someone at church. Again, I need to remember that, too! I ain't claiming any sainthood here!


      6. Lamm shared some examples of "flaming" (shared above). We all need to review that. Often, that IS the problem! We need to remember to address the POST not the POSTER, we can disagree with a POST (even passionately!) but not attack the POSTER. A post can be wrong.... but that doesn't mean the poster ergo is stupid or ignorant or mindless or pagan or closed-minded or going to hell. The problem - 9 times out of 10 - is not positions posters take, but the attacks they make.


      7. I also think some responsibility lies with the READER. No one forces any to be offended or hurt or angered. We can choose to apply some forgiveness.... we can choose to determine that this poster is just frustrated or passionate (especially if it's not typical). Forgiveness is a virtue. It may well be nothing attacking was actually intended.... and even if it was, well, Jesus forgave those who were crucifying Him (quite intentionally, quite without repentance). We can choose to be offended.... we can choose to not be.


      8. I tend to approach all this very academically; I see theology as a human, mental effort to wrap our puny brains around the Mysteries of God - and while I think it's very important, I do see it largely as academic. BUT (and this is important)..... we are NOT discussing pure theory. Most here are Christians - with a powerful, intimate faith that is VERY important to them!!!! This is not dislike discussing each other's girlfriends or spouses - hey, you can challenge my fave brand of beer but when you start to speak negatively of my wife - I"M IN YOUR FACE! I mean that as humor but you get my point.... Faith is often the most precious things in a person's life..... YOU may be discussing this very academically.... your partner may not be. But here's my counsel: If the discussion makes you uncomfortable.... if the discussion feels threatening..... LEAVE THE DISCUSSION. Just leave. It's not hard. No one is forcing anyone to have a discussion that is upsetting. There are HUNDREDS of threads at CH , go to one that isn't upsetting for you. If you CHOOSE to engage in a discussion that is upsetting to you, YOU bear the responsibility for the upset.


      9. I think we have the best community of posters anywhere! There's diversity.... there's passion.... there are lots here who are informed and articulate! I LOVE reading viewpoints I've never heard before..... I LOVE when others I respect thoughtfully consider my post - and approve, but I love it even more when they read a post of mine and give me another pov or who supply some information I simply didn't know or even correct me. IF I wanted to just get an "AMEN" to everything I say because it's the "standard line" I'd post at one of the many Lutheran discussion forums - but I NEVER do. I want to learn and grow. And I'm thankful to the many here who help me do that.



      .


      Blessings!



      - Josiah



      .
      We are justified by works - just not our own.

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