the Holy Spirit our teacher

user1234

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I'm merely asking how we should read the passages quoted from John regarding what Jesus is saying. We often want to apply a promise or comment from the scriptures, but we take it out of context and then end up discouraged when it doesn't happen according to our application.
My questions are general questions about the passage.
Again, I'm trying to find what passages you mean ... I added a verse from 1st John to the list that TurtleHare posted in #9. Is that verse the passages from John you're referring to? I'm still unsure of what promise or comment from scripture you mean?
Of course, generally speaking, None of Gods Word should be taken out of context, definitely not on purpose, I agree with that.
 

MennoSota

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Again, I'm trying to find what passages you mean ... I added a verse from 1st John to the list that TurtleHare posted in #9. Is that verse the passages from John you're referring to? I'm still unsure of what promise or comment from scripture you mean?
Of course, generally speaking, None of Gods Word should be taken out of context, definitely not on purpose, I agree with that.
John 16:13-16
[13]When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own but will tell you what he has heard. He will tell you about the future.
[14]He will bring me glory by telling you whatever he receives from me.
[15]All that belongs to the Father is mine; this is why I said, ‘The Spirit will tell you whatever he receives from me.’
[16]“In a little while you won’t see me anymore. But a little while after that, you will see me again.”

Should this conversation from Jesus to his disciples be applied to us today?
The context is specifically to those disciples regarding the events they would experience. I think it is unwise to apply this conversation to us today.
 

MoreCoffee

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John 16:13-16
[13]When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own but will tell you what he has heard. He will tell you about the future.
[14]He will bring me glory by telling you whatever he receives from me.
[15]All that belongs to the Father is mine; this is why I said, ‘The Spirit will tell you whatever he receives from me.’
[16]“In a little while you won’t see me anymore. But a little while after that, you will see me again.”

Should this conversation from Jesus to his disciples be applied to us today?
The context is specifically to those disciples regarding the events they would experience. I think it is unwise to apply this conversation to us today.

The passage is applicable to the whole church in all ages by which I mean that what the Spirit taught 2,000 years ago and 1,500 years ago and 1000 years ago and 500 years ago is valid and important today in exactly the same way as what the Spirit teaches the whole church today.
 

Imalive

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John 16:13-16
[13]When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own but will tell you what he has heard. He will tell you about the future.
[14]He will bring me glory by telling you whatever he receives from me.
[15]All that belongs to the Father is mine; this is why I said, ‘The Spirit will tell you whatever he receives from me.’
[16]“In a little while you won’t see me anymore. But a little while after that, you will see me again.”

Should this conversation from Jesus to his disciples be applied to us today?
The context is specifically to those disciples regarding the events they would experience. I think it is unwise to apply this conversation to us today.

Only verse 16 is only for the disciples.
 

MennoSota

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Only verse 16 is only for the disciples.
I don't agree. The context shows that the "you" in these verses is specifically addressing the disciples/apostles. The Spirit did exactly those things for the disciples, but not today. There is no need for new, inspired, revelation to which the Spirit would speak. Only groups like the Mormons, Muslims and other cults suggest there is still progressive revelation. That is how they elevate their leaders to apostolic status, even though they contradict God's word.
 

NewCreation435

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John 16:13-16
[13]When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own but will tell you what he has heard. He will tell you about the future.
[14]He will bring me glory by telling you whatever he receives from me.
[15]All that belongs to the Father is mine; this is why I said, ‘The Spirit will tell you whatever he receives from me.’
[16]“In a little while you won’t see me anymore. But a little while after that, you will see me again.”

Should this conversation from Jesus to his disciples be applied to us today?
The context is specifically to those disciples regarding the events they would experience. I think it is unwise to apply this conversation to us today.

So, according to you, you would have us not apply any words of Jesus that he was directly speaking to the disciples? Then why would it have been written down in the first place if it was just for them? Do you disagree that the Spirit brings glory to Jesus and reminds believers of what He said? Do you disbelief that the Holy Spirit is a spirit of truth that guides us into truth? I think this passage is here to help teach us about the role of the Spirit in His church today and can be applied today and should.
 

MoreCoffee

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So, according to you, you would have us not apply any words of Jesus that he was directly speaking to the disciples? Then why would it have been written down in the first place if it was just for them? Do you disagree that the Spirit brings glory to Jesus and reminds believers of what He said? Do you disbelief that the Holy Spirit is a spirit of truth that guides us into truth? I think this passage is here to help teach us about the role of the Spirit in His church today and can be applied today and should.

MennoSota has proposed one of the traps that cessationism and Calvinism creates for a bible reader - either accept that the plural "you" refers to Christians through the ages and includes the apostles as well as people today or treat the plural "you" as a reference to the group addressed and no one else. The way the trap become a trap is that if one accept the proposition then the sermon on the mount has no applicability outside the crowds who heard it and the great commission applied only to the disciples. It allows one to escape some passages but at the cost of losing others that Christians cannot in good conscience lose without also losing their faithfulness to Christ.
 

MennoSota

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So, according to you, you would have us not apply any words of Jesus that he was directly speaking to the disciples? Then why would it have been written down in the first place if it was just for them? Do you disagree that the Spirit brings glory to Jesus and reminds believers of what He said? Do you disbelief that the Holy Spirit is a spirit of truth that guides us into truth? I think this passage is here to help teach us about the role of the Spirit in His church today and can be applied today and should.
In this case it is given to us so we might see how God was going to share his word through the apostles in scripture.
There are certainly places where we can apply verses to ourselves, but we must discern the actual meaning Jesus had in speaking his words and interpret based upon what is actually said.
There is much needless disappointment with God and his word if we rightly discern what God is saying.
For example Revelation 3:16 has nothing to do with salvation even though people apply it that way.
 

user1234

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John 16:13-16
[13]When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own but will tell you what he has heard. He will tell you about the future.
[14]He will bring me glory by telling you whatever he receives from me.
[15]All that belongs to the Father is mine; this is why I said, ‘The Spirit will tell you whatever he receives from me.’
[16]“In a little while you won’t see me anymore. But a little while after that, you will see me again.”

Should this conversation from Jesus to his disciples be applied to us today?
The context is specifically to those disciples regarding the events they would experience. I think it is unwise to apply this conversation to us today.
Ahhh, ok thx, that clears it up.
Initially, w out a post quoted, I thought you were directing your other post to me since it followed mine. Now I see the passage you were referring to (which I'm not sure who initially posted it) but yes, thats diff than the 1stJohn verse I posted, which, as I had said, I find great comfort and reassurance from, for all saved believers. The John 16 passage is partly applicable, imo.

Only verse 16 is only for the disciples.
That is a really good answer! Verse 16 does show that it could only apply to ppl who were PHYSICALLY seeing him, and in the context of only the 4 verses mentioned, that makes sense....but now MennoSota presents a bigger challenge in the following quote →

I don't agree. The context shows that the "you" in these verses is specifically addressing the disciples/apostles. The Spirit did exactly those things for the disciples, but not today. There is no need for new, inspired, revelation to which the Spirit would speak. Only groups like the Mormons, Muslims and other cults suggest there is still progressive revelation. That is how they elevate their leaders to apostolic status, even though they contradict God's word.
If the 'you' in the above 4 verses applies ONLY to the disciples that Jesus was physically speaking with at the time, then how far in both directions should we read the passage to try to determine what else applies only to them, and not to subsequent believers down through time?

You could reasonably back up and say that all of Chapter 15 only applies to those that were with Him at the time as well. What about even C.14? He's saying much the same thing in v.19,

And in v.25 He even says so Himself.
Ch15:16, another example, and in 15:27 He says so again.

And in our context passage, if we continue reading, we have v.22→, v.25, ... is the whole rest of the chapter only applying to those present with Him then?
A case could be made for that in light of the position taken re: 16:13-16.

I don't know if I'm willing to draw that hard line,
but then, by not doing so, it CAN make things a bit murky.

If ALL of Chapters 14, 15, and 16 DONT apply ONLY to those that were present, then which parts do we allow, to include other believers, all the way up to and including ourselves?

Very interesting MennoSota, and THANKS! (sarcastically, lol), I was hoping for a quiet Friday night where I didnt have to think :no: !!) :)

Or can we just say, in one sense 'It ALL applies to us, since those disciples handed it down, and God recorded it for us, in His Word for us, even today?'

(Yeah, that probably wont fly, will it? :disgonbegood:)
 

user1234

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In this case it is given to us so we might see how God was going to share his word through the apostles in scripture.
There are certainly places where we can apply verses to ourselves, but we must discern the actual meaning Jesus had in speaking his words and interpret based upon what is actually said.
There is much needless disappointment with God and his word if we rightly discern what God is saying.
For example Revelation 3:16 has nothing to do with salvation even though people apply it that way.
I'm guessing you MEANT to say, 'There's much needless disappointment.....if we DONT ​rightly discern what God is saying.' Yes no? ✓ (I get it, but just in case some others didnt)
 

NewCreation435

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In this case it is given to us so we might see how God was going to share his word through the apostles in scripture.
There are certainly places where we can apply verses to ourselves, but we must discern the actual meaning Jesus had in speaking his words and interpret based upon what is actually said.
There is much needless disappointment with God and his word if we rightly discern what God is saying.
For example Revelation 3:16 has nothing to do with salvation even though people apply it that way.

I asked you these two questions which you didn't answer
"Do you disagree that the Spirit brings glory to Jesus and reminds believers of what He said? Do you disbelief that the Holy Spirit is a spirit of truth that guides us into truth?"

yes or no?
 

user1234

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I asked you these two questions which you didn't answer
"Do you disagree that the Spirit brings glory to Jesus and reminds believers of what He said? Do you disbelief that the Holy Spirit is a spirit of truth that guides us into truth?"

yes or no?
I'd LOVE to answer, if I may....
Yes, The Holy Spirit absolutely glorifies Jesus and reminds believers of what He said!
And Yes, the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of truth that guides us (believers) into all truth!
Hallelujah and Amen! \ :) /
 

MennoSota

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I'm guessing you MEANT to say, 'There's much needless disappointment.....if we DONT ​rightly discern what God is saying.' Yes no? ✓ (I get it, but just in case some others didnt)
Correct. My mistake
 

MennoSota

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I asked you these two questions which you didn't answer
"Do you disagree that the Spirit brings glory to Jesus and reminds believers of what He said? Do you disbelief that the Holy Spirit is a spirit of truth that guides us into truth?"

yes or no?

Here's what the text says. Ask yourself if your two questions can be answered by the text. You are forcing the text to fit your desired application.

John 16:13-16

[13]When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own but will tell you what he has heard. He will tell you about the future.

[14]He will bring me glory by telling you whatever he receives from me.

[15]All that belongs to the Father is mine; this is why I said, ‘The Spirit will tell you whatever he receives from me.’

[16]“In a little while you won’t see me anymore. But a little while after that, you will see me again.”
 

MennoSota

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Does the Spirit tell us about the future?
No.
Thus the "you" cannot mean us today. It must mean the disciples that Jesus is addressing.
 

user1234

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Correct. My mistake
np ... God bless you, brother.
Please point out mine anytime, (I'm sure I make many).
I really appreciate your insight into the Word of God and defense of the faith.
 

NewCreation435

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Does the Spirit tell us about the future?
No.
Thus the "you" cannot mean us today. It must mean the disciples that Jesus is addressing.

Actually it can mean us today. The Spirit does tell us about the future. It's called eschatology or the study of the last times. As Josiah mentioned in an earlier post, your saying that some parts of this discourse is related only to the disciples has problems. Since none of us were alive then then how do you decide what applied to them and what to us if that is what you want to do?
 
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user1234

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Does the Spirit tell us about the future?
No.
Thus the "you" cannot mean us today. It must mean the disciples that Jesus is addressing.
Hmmm, maybe I'm misunderstanding your meaning, but I would say Yes the Spirit tells us about the future.
The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
The promises of God are revealed to us in His Word by His Spirit, and there are obviously future things to come that we can see only because the Spirit tells us in His Word.
 

MennoSota

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Actually it can mean us today. The Spirit does tell us about the future. It's called eschatology or the study of the last times. As Josiah mentioned in an earlier post, your saying that some parts of this discourse is related only to the disciples has problems. Since none of us were alive then then how do you decide what applied to them and what to us if that is what you want to do?
Look at the rest of the passage. It is clearly directed to those specific disciples. Verse 16 cannot be applied to you or me or anyone other than those disciples Jesus is talking about.
I know that you and others want to make this passage about you and the Holy Spirit, but the context does not give you that right.

John 16:13-16

[13]When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own but will tell you what he has heard. He will tell you about the future.

[14]He will bring me glory by telling you whatever he receives from me.

[15]All that belongs to the Father is mine; this is why I said, ‘The Spirit will tell you whatever he receives from me.’

[16]“In a little while you won’t see me anymore. But a little while after that, you will see me again.”
 

MennoSota

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Hmmm, maybe I'm misunderstanding your meaning, but I would say Yes the Spirit tells us about the future.
The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
The promises of God are revealed to us in His Word by His Spirit, and there are obviously future things to come that we can see only because the Spirit tells us in His Word.
You are misunderstanding. The Spirit does not share new revelation to us today.
The Spirit, however, did give the Apostles new revelation, which is exactly what the text tells us.
 
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