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    World Religion & Speculative Theology - Thread: God's displeasure with Cain?

    1. #11
      MoreCoffee's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Stravinsk View Post
      If Abel is disobedient, then Yeshua boo booed when He called him righteous.
      Cain. Not Able.

      Abel is a good shepherd. Good Shepherds protect their flock from predators. The offering (Hebrew: Gift, מִנְחָה Strongs H4503) means primarily "gift" - it can be used *with reference* to a sacrifice - but itself does not mean sacrifice . The text does not state that Abel killed any of the flock he tended. The word for sacrifice is זֶבַח Strongs H2077 - a completely different word.
      Pope Gregory I was well known for his alms to the poor, and he gave quite generously of the riches donated to the Church by the wealthy people of Rome. Everything from money to land was given to the poor in some fashion. He made clear to his subordinates that their duty was to relieve the distress faced by the poor.

      He ordered his clergy to go out into the streets to find and care for the poor in person.

    2. #12
      Stravinsk is offline Composer and Artist on Flat Earth
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      Word of note:

      Saul/Paul (suspected writer of Hebrews NT book) does call it a sacrifice: Hebrews 11:4

      To my knowledge, he is the first one to do so in reference to this particular story. There is (again, to my understanding - correct me if I'm wrong) not 1 single reference to Abel's offering as a "sacrifice" anywhere in the Old Testament -by which is meant in terms of slaying an animal. Not 1. Until Saul/Paul calls it such.

      Abel's flocks were happy and fat. He probably got a lot of wool out of them.

    3. #13
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      Quote Originally Posted by Stravinsk View Post
      Word of note:

      Saul/Paul (suspected writer of Hebrews NT book) does call it a sacrifice: Hebrews 11:4

      To my knowledge, he is the first one to do so in reference to this particular story. There is (again, to my understanding - correct me if I'm wrong) not 1 single reference to Abel's offering as a "sacrifice" anywhere in the Old Testament -by which is meant in terms of slaying an animal. Not 1. Until Saul/Paul calls it such.

      Abel's flocks were happy and fat. He probably got a lot of wool out of them.
      He's only the first one who says that in the Bible.

      http://www.noahidenations.com/index....was-prohibited

      I always just assumed they ate meat since the fall, cause animals started to eat each other too and only herbs was before the fall. Noah sounds more like: this is good meat, that not. Not: you may start eating meat and offer.

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      Stravinsk is offline Composer and Artist on Flat Earth
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      Quote Originally Posted by Imalive View Post
      He's only the first one who says that in the Bible.

      http://www.noahidenations.com/index....was-prohibited

      I always just assumed they ate meat since the fall, cause animals started to eat each other too and only herbs was before the fall. Noah sounds more like: this is good meat, that not. Not: you may start eating meat and offer.
      Who ate animal flesh and who didn't is a matter of conjecture. However, what isn't up for debate in this issue is God's permission to do so - which is not given until after the flood. So neither Cain nor Abel had permission to kill and eat animals. Nor did any of the wicked God wiped out with the flood, but of course any one of these could have disobeyed. Abel is called Righteous by Yeshua, so he obeyed God and did not. It is also not stated in the text that he killed any of his flock, only that he offered the firstlings as gifts. What does that mean? To my understanding it means that he was an active participant in making that possible, by being a true shepherd that protected the flock from predators.

      No one has yet provided concrete evidence of what Cain's sin actually is (before the murder of Abel). Offering merely the fruit of the ground may have not been acceptable to God, but it is hardly sin. It is God that makes that fruit of the ground grow in the first place, so it may be regarded as a "no or little effort gift" - but offering back to God what He gives you is not sin. It had to be something else.

    5. #15
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      Quote Originally Posted by MoreCoffee View Post
      I do not think it was the amount of care used in choosing the offerings but I do think that the type of offering mattered. Able offered the life of an animal in place of his own and Cain didn't offer any life just vegetables.
      Cain was a farmer. He didn't offer his first fruits to God. Just "some" of his fruits. Abel, on the other hand, offered fat portions from some of his first born. Abel had a higher regard in his offering to the Lord than Cain who was probably just meeting an obligation to only offer "some" of his fruits.
      "Christianity does not require more work but more trust." Pr. Jonathan Fisk
      "Bearing fruit does not make you a branch. A branch is a branch because it grows from the vine." Pr. Jonathan Fisk
      "A Christian's life is not defined by what the Christian does. It is defined by Christ and what He has done for us." Pr. Rolf David Preus

    6. #16
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      Quote Originally Posted by Lämmchen View Post
      Cain was a farmer. He didn't offer his first fruits to God. Just "some" of his fruits. Abel, on the other hand, offered fat portions from some of his first born. Abel had a higher regard in his offering to the Lord than Cain who was probably just meeting an obligation to only offer "some" of his fruits.
      Genesis 4:3-4 Then it happened, after many days, that Cain offered gifts to the Lord, from the fruits of the earth. (4) Abel likewise offered from the firstborn of his flock, and from their fat. And the Lord looked with favor on Abel and his gifts.

      I suppose that what you say is possible. Does God explain it that way when he speak to Cain?
      Pope Gregory I was well known for his alms to the poor, and he gave quite generously of the riches donated to the Church by the wealthy people of Rome. Everything from money to land was given to the poor in some fashion. He made clear to his subordinates that their duty was to relieve the distress faced by the poor.

      He ordered his clergy to go out into the streets to find and care for the poor in person.

    7. #17
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      Quote Originally Posted by Imalive View Post
      Paul just quotes some O.T. text there which everyone plucks out of context.

      God clothed Adam and Eve, so I think He or an angel killed an animal. So Adam taught his sons about that, blood offering, but Cain didn't need a blood offering for his sins he thought. He gave an offer from his own works and it wasn't tithes and had no blood, so that wasn't good. God just didn't accept his own good works offer and then warned him, but he got jealous and hateful and did not listen to God.
      What?
      Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

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    9. #18
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      before masonry was born

      Hebrews 9:22 Abel's gift being accepted showed the qualification to being righteous. The worth of Christ's offering of Himself is seen solely in God's acceptance.

      Sin is waiting at the door but sin must be overcome. Humans (nonbrides) place their desires in sin. When Cain was rejected because God didn't accept his offering (who are we to question God?) then ... the earth no longer gave freely of it's bounty.

      Being accepted of God is only thru the accepted offering of Christ, the lamb who saved the world, saved because God has accepted our offering thru Jesus Christ.

      ETA wrong reference


      4 By faith Abel offered to God a more acceptable sacrifice than Cain, through which he was commended as righteous, God commending him by accepting his gifts. And through his faith, though he died, he still speaks.
      Last edited by Cassia; 11-02-2017 at 12:09 PM.
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      Paul is misinterpreted by those into the letter of the law
      and correctly interpreted by those into the spirit of the law.
      ~~~~~

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      Quote Originally Posted by popsthebuilder View Post
      What?
      Also for Adam and his wife the Lord God made tunics of skin, and clothed them.

      So an animal must have been killed when they sinned.

      And to give an offering of the fat of the sheep I'm afraid he didn't just suck some fat out and let em live.

      Leviticus 17:11New King James Version (NKJV)

      11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.’

    12. #20
      Stravinsk is offline Composer and Artist on Flat Earth
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      Quote Originally Posted by Cassia View Post
      Hebrews 9:22 Abel's gift being accepted showed the qualification to being righteous. The worth of Christ's offering of Himself is seen solely in God's acceptance.

      Sin is waiting at the door but sin must be overcome. Humans (nonbrides) place their desires in sin. When Cain was rejected because God didn't accept his offering (who are we to question God?) then ... the earth no longer gave freely of it's bounty.

      Being accepted of God is only thru the accepted offering of Christ, the lamb who saved the world, saved because God has accepted our offering thru Jesus Christ.

      ETA wrong reference


      4 By faith Abel offered to God a more acceptable sacrifice than Cain, through which he was commended as righteous, God commending him by accepting his gifts. And through his faith, though he died, he still speaks.
      Abel didn't offer a sacrifice - he offered the firstlings -there is no mention of killing in the text. Only the offering of a gift. The word "sacrifice" is NOT included. Abel did NOT slay any of his flock.


      Abel is the Shepherd of the flock - he is a good shepherd, who lays down his life for the sheep

      Abel, not Cain - is declared Righteous by Yeshua.

      What is Cain's sin?

      Whatever Cain's sin is - it led him to murder Abel. Why would Cain murder Abel?

      Abel stood in the way of Cain's evil desire to eat the flesh of animals contrary to God's command.

      Saul/Paul - your favorite murdering Pharisee - approves. The Jews approve also, but you aren't likely to know this. Saul/Paul is one of their number - from the ravenous tribe of Benjamin - the tribe of the ravenous wolf according to Genesis 49:27.

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