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    World Religion & Speculative Theology - Thread: Justification or Sanctification Differences

    1. #11
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      Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
      Where does the Bible teach "false grace?" I think you just coined a term out of thin air.

      Those who never had the gift of faith will leave the church or they will die as fakers and spend eternity in hell. You cannot lose the gift God gave you.
      Second, you make repentance the condition by which God's adoption is maintained. Failure, in your eyes, to repent causes God to tear up the adoption papers and disown you as his child. In so doing you make God a liar when Jesus says " I will never leave you nor forsake you."
      Can you imagine how bad it would be for a child to be petrified that their parent would throw them out of the family if they didn't perfectly do what the father said? How terrible that family would be. Failure to say "sorry" could result in eternal damnation.
      Not only is that a terrible scenario, it is no longer grace. It is exactly what Paul condemns in the book of Galatians. Your position suggests you are saved by grace, but maintain salvation by obeying the law. Read Galatians! Paul says you are anathema!
      Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
      Matthew 7:21

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    3. #12
      Lämmchen's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by DHoffmann View Post
      Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
      Matthew 7:21
      The will of the Father is to believe in the Savior. The Savior is the one who died in our place for the forgiveness of our sins.

      Those who said, "Lord when did we do those things" as in doing the good works, were those unaware of actually doing them. That's because the Spirit guides us to do the works He has in store for us to do. We don't work to get to heaven.
      "Christianity does not require more work but more trust." Pr. Jonathan Fisk
      "Bearing fruit does not make you a branch. A branch is a branch because it grows from the vine." Pr. Jonathan Fisk

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    5. #13
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      Quote Originally Posted by Lämmchen View Post
      Could you elaborate on why you quoted my post and then just replied with this verse?
      Because you can observe but the Jewish people always had a problem with the doing. Through Christ we can learn to obey by grace. I was referring to this in particular

    6. #14
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      Quote Originally Posted by DHoffmann View Post
      Because you can observe but the Jewish people always had a problem with the doing. Through Christ we can learn to obey by grace. I was referring to this in particular
      So you're talking about sanctification. We live our lives not to earn something but because God's Law is holy and our neighbors need our good works. Christ obeyed all of the Law and we are covered in that righteousness in our baptism. By faith we are saved.
      "Christianity does not require more work but more trust." Pr. Jonathan Fisk
      "Bearing fruit does not make you a branch. A branch is a branch because it grows from the vine." Pr. Jonathan Fisk

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    8. #15
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      Quote Originally Posted by Lämmchen View Post
      So you're talking about sanctification. We live our lives not to earn something but because God's Law is holy and our neighbors need our good works. Christ obeyed all of the Law and we are covered in that righteousness in our baptism. By faith we are saved.
      Amen yes

    9. #16
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      Quote Originally Posted by DHoffmann View Post
      Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
      Matthew 7:21
      That's not false grace. That's someone who was never extended grace making a false claim. There is a big difference.
      God never extends a false grace. When God chooses to graciously save, there is nothing the human can do about it. You can't decline what God freely gives.

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    11. #17
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      Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
      Where does the Bible teach "false grace?" I think you just coined a term out of thin air.

      Those who never had the gift of faith will leave the church or they will die as fakers and spend eternity in hell. You cannot lose the gift God gave you.
      Second, you make repentance the condition by which God's adoption is maintained. Failure, in your eyes, to repent causes God to tear up the adoption papers and disown you as his child. In so doing you make God a liar when Jesus says " I will never leave you nor forsake you."
      Can you imagine how bad it would be for a child to be petrified that their parent would throw them out of the family if they didn't perfectly do what the father said? How terrible that family would be. Failure to say "sorry" could result in eternal damnation.
      Not only is that a terrible scenario, it is no longer grace. It is exactly what Paul condemns in the book of Galatians. Your position suggests you are saved by grace, but maintain salvation by obeying the law. Read Galatians! Paul says you are anathema!
      In Jude.

      For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God[b] and our Lord Jesus Christ.


      But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, 21 keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

      22 And on some have compassion, making a distinction;[d] 23 but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire,[e] hating even the garment defiled by the flesh.

      Galatians 5:

      I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

      19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,[c] fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders,[d] drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

      22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

      It's not about not doing perfectly what the Father says or He kicks you out. He doesnt kick anyone out, but ppl can walk away from Him. Abide in Him. If we don't He cuts us off.
      John says this I spoke to you that you do not sin and if we sin 1 John 1:9.
      But if someone gets entangled in false grace teaching it's dangerous and you gotta get em out. Not everyone is just evil and was never saved if they backslide and ppl do come back.

      If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.

      The lost son was a son, but he was dead and became alive again.

    12. #18
      MennoSota is online now Veteran Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by Imalive View Post
      In Jude.

      For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God[b] and our Lord Jesus Christ.


      But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, 21 keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

      22 And on some have compassion, making a distinction;[d] 23 but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire,[e] hating even the garment defiled by the flesh.

      Galatians 5:

      I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

      19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,[c] fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders,[d] drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

      22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

      It's not about not doing perfectly what the Father says or He kicks you out. He doesnt kick anyone out, but ppl can walk away from Him. Abide in Him. If we don't He cuts us off.
      John says this I spoke to you that you do not sin and if we sin 1 John 1:9.
      But if someone gets entangled in false grace teaching it's dangerous and you gotta get em out. Not everyone is just evil and was never saved if they backslide and ppl do come back.

      If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.

      The lost son was a son, but he was dead and became alive again.
      It's false teaching, but God never extends false grace.
      You quote in Jude actually supports Romans 9 where Paul informs us that God sovereignly chooses those whom he loves and thus determines those whom he will hate. Notice how Jude tells us that these men were, long ago, marked out for this condemnation. It was by God's sovereign ordination. Wrap your head around that.

      Your quotation of Galatians 5 does not determine a person's salvation, but it does identify what actions come from the Spirit of God and what actions come from our corrupt sinful nature. It has nothing to do with justification and salvation.

      If someone is entangled in a false teaching it is their own fault. If God has actually adopted them by his unmerited favor, God will pull them out of such false teaching. If God has never adopted them, they will die in their trespasses and sins no matter where they roam.

    13. #19
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      Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
      It's false teaching, but God never extends false grace.
      You quote in Jude actually supports Romans 9 where Paul informs us that God sovereignly chooses those whom he loves and thus determines those whom he will hate. Notice how Jude tells us that these men were, long ago, marked out for this condemnation. It was by God's sovereign ordination. Wrap your head around that.

      Your quotation of Galatians 5 does not determine a person's salvation, but it does identify what actions come from the Spirit of God and what actions come from our corrupt sinful nature. It has nothing to do with justification and salvation.

      If someone is entangled in a false teaching it is their own fault. If God has actually adopted them by his unmerited favor, God will pull them out of such false teaching. If God has never adopted them, they will die in their trespasses and sins no matter where they roam.
      True faith from God is never false I agree.
      Do you believe that the majority of "christians" might have a false idea of grace and they are depressed all the time as "christians" they obviously never experienced rebirth and just use the title for looks? I see this often in my town, you are indeed Christian in my thoughts, but many misunderstand grace as a means as of indulgence and its every sad. I can only pray for them that they see the light, I wouldn't wish depression on my worst enemy.

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      Quote Originally Posted by DHoffmann View Post
      True faith from God is never false I agree.
      Do you believe that the majority of "christians" might have a false idea of grace and they are depressed all the time as "christians" they obviously never experienced rebirth and just use the title for looks? I see this often in my town, you are indeed Christian in my thoughts, but many misunderstand grace as a means as of indulgence and its every sad. I can only pray for them that they see the light, I wouldn't wish depression on my worst enemy.
      I do not know God's work in each persons life. It is possible that many people in the church are attempting to be adopted by God through their own efforts even though God has never chosen to adopt them.
      When the non-reconciled see the joy that reconciliation brings they will either get angry or they will attempt to imitate what they see without ever having experienced God grace. How many people are doing this, only God knows. My only role is to preach the truth presented in scripture and to correct false teaching. If God changes the path of a person that is for God to do. I leave it in His very capable hands.

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