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    World Religion & Speculative Theology - Thread: Justification or Sanctification Differences

    1. #1
      Lämmchen's Avatar
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      Justification or Sanctification Differences

      Here is the thread to discuss the differences between Justification and Sanctification so that the Purgatory thread can get back on topic.
      "Christianity does not require more work but more trust." Pr. Jonathan Fisk
      "Bearing fruit does not make you a branch. A branch is a branch because it grows from the vine." Pr. Jonathan Fisk
      "A Christian's life is not defined by what the Christian does. It is defined by Christ and what He has done for us." Pr. Rolf David Preus

    2. #2
      Lämmchen's Avatar
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      Justification comes before sanctification. Paul wrote: "We maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law." Romans 3:28

      Whenever someone says, "I got saved when I..." then that person is most likely confusing the two terms and thinking that sanctification is their salvation instead of a consequence of Justification. In terms of speaking of "getting saved" it should always point to Jesus and the cross. Anything following after is our cooperation but falls under sanctification and that includes a response or good works.
      "Christianity does not require more work but more trust." Pr. Jonathan Fisk
      "Bearing fruit does not make you a branch. A branch is a branch because it grows from the vine." Pr. Jonathan Fisk
      "A Christian's life is not defined by what the Christian does. It is defined by Christ and what He has done for us." Pr. Rolf David Preus

    3. #3
      DHoffmann's Avatar
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      I have a feeling we will eventually debase this topic back to the topic of Purgatory one way or another

      For the record I believe that by faith in Christ and by the Grace of God we walk in good works and if we shall however start to backslide we should repent what the Spirit convicts us lest we suffer lifetime of condemnation and shame and the crucifying of Christ afresh.
      Therefore repentance has an important role if we fall from grace.

      For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
      Ephesians 2:8-10

      You CAN backslide, repentance is necessary and is not "justification" but our duty lest we be condemned.

      Repentance is "Returning"
      For thus saith the Lord GOD, the Holy One of Israel; In returning and rest shall ye be saved; in quietness and in confidence shall be your strength: and ye would not.
      Isaiah 30:15

      -------

      From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
      John 6:66

      If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
      Hebrews 6:6

      How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
      Hebrews 2:3

      Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
      Hebrews 3:12

      For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
      Hebrews 3:14

      -----
      The claim that repenting and keeping of commandments is works unto salvation is false and dangerous, no dangerous than buying indulgence for remission of sins.
      Faith produces good works, good works does not produce faith. Falling away from faith is very dangerous and without repentance "returning" you will stay condemned even after being saved.
      Judas could have repented, but he took his own life and will never have that chance.
      Satan is eternally condemned for being the ultimate rebel against God.
      Repentance is part of the good works we are to walk in through faith of the Lord, so that the backsliding pull of Satan can be cut off and return you to fruitfull walks with God.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Lämmchen View Post
      Justification comes before sanctification. Paul wrote: "We maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law." Romans 3:28

      Whenever someone says, "I got saved when I..." then that person is most likely confusing the two terms and thinking that sanctification is their salvation instead of a consequence of Justification. In terms of speaking of "getting saved" it should always point to Jesus and the cross. Anything following after is our cooperation but falls under sanctification and that includes a response or good works.
      For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
      Romans 2:13

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    6. #5
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      'The just shall live by faith.'

      That's an even more famous verse from Romans, and it seems to say that we are justified by faith in Christ and, being saved, we will necessarily strive to live a Christlike existence. That does NOT imply, however, that keeping the Law or the Commandments is what justifies or that it's even possible for us to do so.

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    8. #6
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      Justification.... Sanctification....


      There are TWO DIFFERENT issue here: Justification and Sanctification (narrow sense, both).


      Let me use this analogy:

      JUSTIFICATION (narrow)

      1. FIRST: On a given date, I was born. I was GIVEN life as a free gift, unearned, undeserved, unmertited, not even requested or willed - the miracle, the wonderful, mysterious GIFT of life (we might agree that actually happened about 9 months earlier, but let's proceed). At that point, I became alive because I was GIVEN life. I became a human being - with all that means, biologically and spiritually, all that means in terms of God and me. GIFT. G.I.F.T. This purely, solely, only, exclusively by mercy since prior to that, I did NOTHING. I thought nothing. I willed nothing. I sought nothing. I desired nothing. NO good works. GIFT. G.I.F.T. Mercy. M.E.R.C.Y. On a specific date - I was removed from my mother (C-Section) - unbreathing, unconscience - I had NOTHING to do with it. NOTHING. N.O.T.H.I.N.G. Gift. Mercy. No merits. No works. No will. Nothing in or from me. GIFT. MERCY. Someone ELSE is to be credited. Entirely. Wholly. Completely. MONERGISTIC. Life is mine - by grace, by mercy, from God, as a GIFT. I am a human being, with all that means - by grace, by mercy, from God, as a GIFT.


      In the same way, God saved me (what Protestants mean here is justification - narrow sense). God GAVE me spiritual life, God caused me to be born AGAIN, now not only with physical life but with spiritual life, now I am not only the child of my parents but a child of God. This CHANGES my relationship to God, as a result solely, only, exclusively because of God's mercy, grace, favor; solely, only, exclusively because of what CHRIST has done as THE Savior; solely, only, exclusively because God GAVE me the GIFT of faith in Christ as my Savior: Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. We believe this is MONERGISTIC, because CHRIST is the Savior - not me. I'm NOT the Savior - in whole or in part, now or ever - because the job is taken and He didn't blow it. What makes me a CHRISTIAN is that God's merciful, gracious GIFT of faith means I'm looking to CHRIST as THE Savior, not in the mirror.


      SANCTIFICATION (narrow) -


      2. SECOND: Almost immediately after being born (well, maybe some months later, lol), my parents, my society and yes God called me to GROW. To mature. To become more loving, more caring, more righteous, more ethical, more serving. THIS is a process (unlike my conception). THIS is synergistic (unlike conception). GROWING to be more God like. GROWING in the directions that my parents, my society, my God call me: "Thou shalt be HOLY just as the Lord God is holy." "Thou shalt be PERFECT just as your Father in Heaven is perfect." "LOVE in exactly the same way as Christ loved us on the Cross." High callings! I'm not "there" yet. I'm still GROWING (well, I'd LIKE to say always growing..... sometimes I'm not, sometimes I even retreat). And I do so in large part because of God's EMPOWERING, not due to some innate homo sapiens ability. Yes..... in a few cases, the Bible also calls this "grace" but the CONTEXT tells us this is different, here it means "strength" or "empowering". It is still ours by mercy (we don't DESIRE anything from Him), but here it means strength. This growing up, this discipleship, this CHRISTIAN-walk is something a CHRISTIAN does, not something that makes one a Christian; it is the RESULT of justification not the cause. My being nice to my neighbor is not what causes me to have physical life, having physical life enables me to be nice to my neighbor. What I do as a growing, maturing, developing man is not what makes me a homo sapiens nor worthy of being given life.


      Two different things. Both important but not to be confused.



      Pax Christi



      - Josiah



      .
      Last edited by Josiah; 10-30-2017 at 01:05 PM.
      We are justified by works - just not our own.

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    10. #7
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      JUSTIFICATION (narrow sense)....


      The Gospel of Luke tells us about Christ giving life to Lazarus....




      “Now a certain man was ill, Lazarus of Bethany, the village of Mary and her sister Martha. So the sisters sent word to Jesus, saying, “Lord, he whom you love is ill.” Upon hearing this, Jesus said to his disciples, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but I go to awaken him.” The disciples said to him, “Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover.” But Jesus had spoken of his death, so Jesus told them plainly, “Lazarus has died.” Now when Jesus came, he found that Lazarus had already been dead for four days. Now many of the Jews had come to Martha and Mary to console them concerning their brother. Jesus and his disciples then arrived. When Jesus saw Mary weeping, and the Jews who had come with her also weeping, he was deeply moved by loved. And he said, “Where have you laid him?” They said to him, “Lord, come and see.” Jesus wept. So the Jews said, “See how he loved him!” Then Jesus, deeply moved, came to the tomb. It was a cave, and a stone lay against it. Jesus said, “Take away the stone.” So they took away the stone. And Jesus lifted up his eyes and he cried out with a loud voice, “Lazarus, come out.” The man who had died four days came out, his hands and feet still bound with linen strips, and his face wrapped with a cloth. Jesus said to them, “Unbind him, and let him go.” And Lazarus was restored to his sisters.




      There was a problem: Lazarus was DEAD. He wasn’t sick…. He wasn’t handicapped…. He wasn't stuggling with insufficient strength. He wasn’t simply in some trouble. Um, he was DEAD. The text says he had been dead for 4 days. The text says he was stinking to high heaven. Get it? Dead. Kinda of a desperate and helpless situation…. Keep that in mind here, because the word “salvation” means to be rescued from a desperate and helpless situation, rescued from something where we are going to be entirely passive. Well, Lazarus was DEAD so what he needed was salvation. And someone shows up! And not just anyone, it’s JESUS.

      And Jesus is "greatly moved" (we're told 4 times) – not by Lazarus’ cries for help, not by dead Lazarus’ efforts to raise himself from the dead, not even by Lazarus’ good deeds performed there in the tomb. Nope. Lazarus couldn't do ANY of those things because, well, remember? He was DEAD. But JESUS (not Lazarus) is moved greatly by His boundless mercy, His unconditional love, His amazing grace. It's all about the heart of Jesus. ALL. EVERYTHING.

      And Jesus performs a miracle! A pure, divine miracle of life! Regeneration. Born Again. Justification. Jesus gives LIFE to Lazarus! It’s entirely, totally Jesus’ doing (Lazarus didn’t contribute a thing, he didn't do a thing, he didn't decide a thing, he didn't will a thing, he didn't merit a thing..... he couldn’t..... because (remember?).... yup...... he was DEAD. Lazarus got saved. Jesus saved him. Lazarus was GIVEN life.... Jesus was the active one, Jesus did the life-giving. Jesus GAVE him life - and restored him to his sisters.


      That's the story of every Christian.... we were spiritually DEAD. And Jesus GAVE us life. Justification (narrow), regeneration, born again, becoming a child of God, coming to life.....


      JUSTIFICATION (narrow sense) Now I'm sure Lazarus eventually said "Thank you" and certainly Lazarus was now called to live as one alive and redeemed by Christ, but that's another subject for another day - that's what happens BECAUSE we have been justified/rengerated/born again - not the cause of it.


      "You were DEAD in your trespasses and sins, but GOD who is overflowing with mercy toward us, solely because of His unconditional love for us, made us alive in Christ – by God’s grace you have been saved through faith in Christ – and God raised us up in Christ and caused us to seat in heavenly places. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And none of this is your own doing. All of this is the free gift of God and not the result of anything you did so that no one has reason to boast of himself.”



      Sola Gratis - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. Soli DEO Gloria!!!!!



      - Josiah




      .
      We are justified by works - just not our own.

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      Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
      Why would I go to a priest when Jesus is the one mediator between God and man?
      Second, you misapply Hebrews 6.
      Im saying dont go to a priest but repent to the Lord. You just said that Christ is your mediator so I know you know what repentance is.
      Hebrews 6 is teaching you how strong conviction of the heart is, if you sleep with someone elses wife the Lord will convict you of it and you must "return"/repent lest you condemn yourself and put the Lord your God to open shame.
      Stop twisting my words around, repentance is there to help you to not fall

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      @Imalive wrote:
      People can depart from the faith. Demas left.

      Gods love is not unconditional. If someone is saved and the fruit is good and later they get false grace teaching and fall in unforgiveness or whatever, they have to repent or they're not saved.
      Where does the Bible teach "false grace?" I think you just coined a term out of thin air.

      Those who never had the gift of faith will leave the church or they will die as fakers and spend eternity in hell. You cannot lose the gift God gave you.
      Second, you make repentance the condition by which God's adoption is maintained. Failure, in your eyes, to repent causes God to tear up the adoption papers and disown you as his child. In so doing you make God a liar when Jesus says " I will never leave you nor forsake you."
      Can you imagine how bad it would be for a child to be petrified that their parent would throw them out of the family if they didn't perfectly do what the father said? How terrible that family would be. Failure to say "sorry" could result in eternal damnation.
      Not only is that a terrible scenario, it is no longer grace. It is exactly what Paul condemns in the book of Galatians. Your position suggests you are saved by grace, but maintain salvation by obeying the law. Read Galatians! Paul says you are anathema!

    14. #10
      Lämmchen's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by DHoffmann View Post
      For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
      Romans 2:13
      Could you elaborate on why you quoted my post and then just replied with this verse?
      "Christianity does not require more work but more trust." Pr. Jonathan Fisk
      "Bearing fruit does not make you a branch. A branch is a branch because it grows from the vine." Pr. Jonathan Fisk
      "A Christian's life is not defined by what the Christian does. It is defined by Christ and what He has done for us." Pr. Rolf David Preus

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