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    World Religion & Speculative Theology - Thread: Purgatory?

    1. #21
      DHoffmann's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by MoreCoffee View Post
      Catholics do not call the books "apocrypha" for us they are simply holy scripture in the same way that the Gospel according to saint Matthew is. When discussing scripture with Jews and Protestants Catholics often use the word "deuterocanon" to point to the seven books excluded by Jews and Protestants (those books are 1 & 2 Maccabees, Judith, Tobit, Wisdom, Sirach, Baruch) Protestants and Jews also remove parts of two other books (those are Daniel and Esther).



      If you stop and think for a moment you may realise that your hope of heaven includes the idea that in heaven you will be without sin and without any inclination to sin. Here on Earth you do sin and are inclined to sin. What happens to make that change in you? Catholics call the change having your sinful nature purged away and the state of having it purged away is called, by Catholics, purgatory. Paul speaks of having one's works proved (tested) by fire and the burning away of the "dross" so that what is "gold and precious stones" is all that remains. Paul's discussion of works and the judgement of God that is applied to one's works also mentions that the person who experiences this escapes "through fire". That is a good example of new testament scripture discussing being purged of sin. The passage reads:
      1 Corinthians 3:9-15 For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building. 10 According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and another man is building upon it. Let each man take care how he builds upon it. 11 For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw-- 13 each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.


      The book of Enoch still exists. It is on the web. A search ought to find it for you. Catholics do not regard Enoch as canonical scripture.
      I know the book of Enoch exist I was pretending to be a common folk without fancy internet lol
      Oh the beauty of revelation.
      The term "fire" is sadly used loosely I believe in all denominations. The NT indeed says that we will be baptised in fire as well.
      Our God is a consuming fire and that fire is Love and that fire is Truth, it devours all lies and burns up all murderers. There is not everlasting "hell" for the bible states that murder is hate and that murderers have no eternity. God does not continually burn and never destroy, God burns them up quick and that personality will vanquish from all existence. However, ALL sinners WILL have there PART in the lake of ETERNAL FIRE and that fire is GOD, for our God is a consuming FIRE.
      So indeed purgatory is just the Catholic view of this redeeming FIRE, its better than the eternal hellish punishment idea which turns a lot of people away from the church.
      Perhaps the catholic church should reform this error and just call hell itself "purgatory" because its pretty close to the identity of hell than the eternal suffering off sinners in fire... again, sinners have no eternity and cannot burn in hell eternally, even hell itself is done away with in the lake of fire.
      So you see I disagree slightly, the fire of God burns those who reject his love, it burns because they live in filthy sin and remain pitifully condemned. They have their part but that spirit of death will die, the followers of death will have no eternity neither in hell or heaven, that spirit is done away with in an instant... quick and swift.
      Will they be tried in the fire? Yes.
      Does the fire last forever? Yes.
      Does the sinner last forever? No.
      I view Catholic purgatory as an infant that needs to grow out of the old ideas of eternal damnation of everlasting hell and replace it officially, this is purgatory, we are tried here and now. There is no Catholic hell.

    2. #22
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      Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
      ...
      ... with purgatory.
      1 Corinthians 3:9-15 For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building. 10 According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and another man is building upon it. Let each man take care how he builds upon it. 11 For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw-- 13 each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

      Pope Gregory I was well known for his alms to the poor, and he gave quite generously of the riches donated to the Church by the wealthy people of Rome. Everything from money to land was given to the poor in some fashion. He made clear to his subordinates that their duty was to relieve the distress faced by the poor.

      He ordered his clergy to go out into the streets to find and care for the poor in person.

    3. #23
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      Quote Originally Posted by MoreCoffee View Post
      Catholics do not call the books "apocrypha" for us they are simply holy scripture in the same way that the Gospel according to saint Matthew is. When discussing scripture with Jews and Protestants Catholics often use the word "deuterocanon" to point to the seven books excluded by Jews and Protestants (those books are 1 & 2 Maccabees, Judith, Tobit, Wisdom, Sirach, Baruch) Protestants and Jews also remove parts of two other books (those are Daniel and Esther).



      If you stop and think for a moment you may realise that your hope of heaven includes the idea that in heaven you will be without sin and without any inclination to sin. Here on Earth you do sin and are inclined to sin. What happens to make that change in you? Catholics call the change having your sinful nature purged away and the state of having it purged away is called, by Catholics, purgatory. Paul speaks of having one's works proved (tested) by fire and the burning away of the "dross" so that what is "gold and precious stones" is all that remains. Paul's discussion of works and the judgement of God that is applied to one's works also mentions that the person who experiences this escapes "through fire". That is a good example of new testament scripture discussing being purged of sin. The passage reads:
      1 Corinthians 3:9-15 For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building. 10 According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and another man is building upon it. Let each man take care how he builds upon it. 11 For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw-- 13 each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.


      The book of Enoch still exists. It is on the web. A search ought to find it for you. Catholics do not regard Enoch as canonical scripture.
      A perfect example of eisegesis where a person forces a man-made concept on the text.
      Again, the church at Rome did not originally accept the apocrypha. It was tossed in later.
      Most churches saw these writings as secondary writings that could be beneficial, but we're not given by inspiration of God. They recognized the contradictions in the writings that made them noncanonical. Rome forced them in as a means of pulling bad theology out of their magic cap.

    4. #24
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      Quote Originally Posted by DHoffmann View Post
      ...
      I view Catholic purgatory as an infant that needs to grow out of the old ideas of eternal damnation of everlasting hell and replace it officially, this is purgatory, we are tried here and now. There is no Catholic hell.
      Catholics do not teach eternal purgatory. Only those who will be in heaven pass through purgatory. The "duration" is finite and possibly "lasts but an instant". Catholics do teach eternal punishment in "hell".
      Pope Gregory I was well known for his alms to the poor, and he gave quite generously of the riches donated to the Church by the wealthy people of Rome. Everything from money to land was given to the poor in some fashion. He made clear to his subordinates that their duty was to relieve the distress faced by the poor.

      He ordered his clergy to go out into the streets to find and care for the poor in person.

    5. #25
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      Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
      A perfect example of eisegesis ...
      Careful or you will wear out that shiny new word
      Pope Gregory I was well known for his alms to the poor, and he gave quite generously of the riches donated to the Church by the wealthy people of Rome. Everything from money to land was given to the poor in some fashion. He made clear to his subordinates that their duty was to relieve the distress faced by the poor.

      He ordered his clergy to go out into the streets to find and care for the poor in person.

    6. #26
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      Quote Originally Posted by MoreCoffee View Post
      Okay. But the question may produce several divergent answers. For example you said that the word "sanctification" covers the transition from earthly imperfection to heavenly perfection. Most Calvinist theologies use the word "sanctification" to mean that slow and often difficult process of becoming less sinful in this life on this earth. That is not the same meaning as the one you suggested.
      From old nature to whatever degree of perfection is obtained. Because it's a command to be thou perfect, sanctification needs co-operation. Not sure that's possible in pergatory ... to partake of the suffering as a willing member?

      I don't have time to get caught up into a discussion right now but that is the correct term. Co-operatively becoming less sinful is the progression of the process of sanctification. Pergatory otoh, ya'll can't see the forest for the rewards trees
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      Paul is misinterpreted by those into the letter of the law
      and correctly interpreted by those into the spirit of the law.
      ~~~~~

    7. #27
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      Quote Originally Posted by DHoffmann View Post
      So indeed purgatory is just the Catholic view of this redeeming FIRE, its better than the eternal hellish punishment idea which turns a lot of people away from the church.
      No it's not better. It's a means by which millions of people are lead straight into hell. It's a teaching that is entirely man-centered and castrates grace by lying to people that they can achieve heaven after they are already dead. It's insidiously evil and straight from hell.

    8. #28
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      Quote Originally Posted by MoreCoffee View Post
      Catholics do not teach eternal purgatory. Only those who will be in heaven pass through purgatory. The "duration" is finite and possibly "lasts but an instant". Catholics do teach eternal punishment in "hell".
      Yes I understand the finite as I was taught to CCD before I was confirmed. Thats the idea I like, eternal hell however is misunderstood in my view

    9. #29
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      Quote Originally Posted by MoreCoffee View Post
      Careful or you will wear out that shiny new word
      Sadly, you don't know what it means, just as you don't understand grace or sanctification.

    10. #30
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      Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
      No it's not better. It's a means by which millions of people are lead straight into hell. It's a teaching that is entirely man-centered and castrates grace by lying to people that they can achieve heaven after they are already dead. It's insidiously evil and straight from hell.
      Let their conscious ride them until their death, and God will judge them accordingly.
      Those who love indulgence to hate and sin have their reward here on Earth for a very short time (not eternally) we however seek the eternal reward in Heaven, there is a difference.
      Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
      1 John 3:15

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