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    World Religion & Speculative Theology - Thread: Purgatory?

    1. #11
      DHoffmann's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by MoreCoffee View Post
      Purgatory is in the bible. You just do not know the bible very well MennoSota. That is why you do not see it when it is in front of you. Hidden from you in plain sight. Purgatory is even in your eviscerated 66 book "bible" - by the way, do you notice how like the number of the beast 66 is?
      Is the Apocrypha, the books deleted by Jewish scribes, part of Catholic teachings?
      I own one (Catholic bible with Apocrypha) and I just love the story of Bel and the Dragon also Sirach is pretty neato as it taught me that female musicians cannot be trusted, I found this out the hard way lol
      Can you point me to some teachings in the Apocrypha about purgatory?
      I do find it fascinating the edits in the Holy library, one can now only imagine what the NT was referring to when it parallels the book of Enoch, namely Jude.
      Last edited by DHoffmann; 10-24-2017 at 08:37 PM.

    2. #12
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      Quote Originally Posted by MoreCoffee View Post
      ...... The process by which one changes from Earthly impurity to heavenly perfection is called purgatory by Catholics and is called <insert secret word here> by Protestants. ...
      .The word that Protestants would use is <sanctification>.
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      Paul is misinterpreted by those into the letter of the law
      and correctly interpreted by those into the spirit of the law.
      ~~~~~

    3. #13
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      Quote Originally Posted by MoreCoffee View Post

      Purgatory is a universal Christian belief

      Document that statement. What is your evidence that every Christian for the past 2000 years has believed in "Purgatory".



      Protestants, Orthodox, Catholic, and even the strange sects derived from Protestantism like Jehovah's witnesses and Christadelphians, believe that the redeemed in heaven are completely pure and totally sin free yet at the moment of death very few here on Earth either believe or teach that Christians are completely pure and totally sin free.

      There's only one denomination on the Planet Earth with a Dogma of Purgatory. It's a theory first invented around the same time as when the RCC split off the EOC and is not shared by the EOC (or anyone else). It developed and evolved over centuries but uniquely in just one denomination: the RCC.

      Some believe we are free from sin because we are forgiven. To be forgiven is not the same as having suffered punishment for them in some intermediate state lasting for unknown periods of time. Some Christians believe that Jesus suffered for our sins, not that we do in Purgatory after we die.





      Orthodox people probably do not have an agreed vocabulary for the transition. Protestants appear to think the transition is instantaneous. Catholics teach that the transition is experienced and probably remembered as well as one remembers Earthly life when in heaven.

      Then all Christians don't believe as the RCC currently does. No other denomination on the planet shares the RCC dogma on Purgatory.

      Not all agree there's a "transition" in terms of who/what we are..... not all believe this take place in "Purgatory" or that we are "purged" or that there is this intermediary state - thus they don't accept Purgatory.


      the Council of Trent says these things about purgatory
      The Council of Trent was a little denominational gathering.... only one denomination participated in this. And it was in the 16th Century, after its splits with the East and with Lutherans.




      Among them is also the fire of purgatory, in which the souls of just men are cleansed by a temporary punishment

      Not every Christian now and in history believes even this aspect of Purgatory.





      Some resources:


      https://carm.org/purgatory-and-1-cor-315

      http://www.equip.org/article/is-purg...lical-concept/

      https://christianity.stackexchange.c...e-of-purgatory

      https://orthodoxwiki.org/Purgatory




      .
      Last edited by Josiah; 10-24-2017 at 09:50 PM.
      We are justified by works - just not our own.

    4. #14
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      Quote Originally Posted by DHoffmann View Post
      Is the Apocrypha, the books deleted by Jewish scribes, part of Catholic teachings?
      Catholics do not call the books "apocrypha" for us they are simply holy scripture in the same way that the Gospel according to saint Matthew is. When discussing scripture with Jews and Protestants Catholics often use the word "deuterocanon" to point to the seven books excluded by Jews and Protestants (those books are 1 & 2 Maccabees, Judith, Tobit, Wisdom, Sirach, Baruch) Protestants and Jews also remove parts of two other books (those are Daniel and Esther).

      I own one (Catholic bible with Apocrypha) and I just love the story of Bel and the Dragon also Sirach is pretty neato as it taught me that female musicians cannot be trusted, I found this out the hard way lol
      Can you point me to some teachings in the Apocrypha about purgatory?
      If you stop and think for a moment you may realise that your hope of heaven includes the idea that in heaven you will be without sin and without any inclination to sin. Here on Earth you do sin and are inclined to sin. What happens to make that change in you? Catholics call the change having your sinful nature purged away and the state of having it purged away is called, by Catholics, purgatory. Paul speaks of having one's works proved (tested) by fire and the burning away of the "dross" so that what is "gold and precious stones" is all that remains. Paul's discussion of works and the judgement of God that is applied to one's works also mentions that the person who experiences this escapes "through fire". That is a good example of new testament scripture discussing being purged of sin. The passage reads:
      1 Corinthians 3:9-15 For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building. 10 According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and another man is building upon it. Let each man take care how he builds upon it. 11 For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw-- 13 each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

      I do find it fascinating the edits in the Holy library, one can now only imagine what the NT was referring to when it parallels the book of Enoch, namely Jude.
      The book of Enoch still exists. It is on the web. A search ought to find it for you. Catholics do not regard Enoch as canonical scripture.
      Pope Gregory I was well known for his alms to the poor, and he gave quite generously of the riches donated to the Church by the wealthy people of Rome. Everything from money to land was given to the poor in some fashion. He made clear to his subordinates that their duty was to relieve the distress faced by the poor.

      He ordered his clergy to go out into the streets to find and care for the poor in person.

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    6. #15
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      Quote Originally Posted by Cassia View Post
      .The word that Protestants would use is <sanctification>.
      Really? I am never sure what Protestants mean by "sanctification". For Catholics its meaning is clear and well defined.
      Pope Gregory I was well known for his alms to the poor, and he gave quite generously of the riches donated to the Church by the wealthy people of Rome. Everything from money to land was given to the poor in some fashion. He made clear to his subordinates that their duty was to relieve the distress faced by the poor.

      He ordered his clergy to go out into the streets to find and care for the poor in person.

    7. #16
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      Quote Originally Posted by MoreCoffee View Post
      Really? I am never sure what Protestants mean by "sanctification". For Catholics its meaning is clear and well defined.
      You have many scholars here to explain it to you. I'm on sabatical. lol.
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      Paul is misinterpreted by those into the letter of the law
      and correctly interpreted by those into the spirit of the law.
      ~~~~~

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    9. #17
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      Quote Originally Posted by Cassia View Post
      You have many scholars here to explain it to you. I'm on sabatical. lol.
      Here's a Lutheran view: http://www.pastormattrichard.webs.co...ctifcation.pdf

    10. #18
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      Quote Originally Posted by MoreCoffee View Post
      Purgatory is in the bible. You just do not know the bible very well MennoSota. That is why you do not see it when it is in front of you. Hidden from you in plain sight. Purgatory is even in your eviscerated 66 book "bible" - by the way, do you notice how like the number of the beast 66 is?
      Only in your dreams, MC. Only in your dreams.
      The RCC butchers the scriptures by yanking verses out of context to force a false doctrine on their followers. It's just like Imams do with the Quran...which makes it even more sad. The RCC follows the same method of eisegesis that Islam follows. Did you know Muslims claim the Bible prophesies the coming of Muhammad? They come up with their teaching in the same fashion that the RCC comes up with purgatory.

    11. #19
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      Quote Originally Posted by Cassia View Post
      You have many scholars here to explain it to you. I'm on sabatical. lol.
      Okay. But the question may produce several divergent answers. For example you said that the word "sanctification" covers the transition from earthly imperfection to heavenly perfection. Most Calvinist theologies use the word "sanctification" to mean that slow and often difficult process of becoming less sinful in this life on this earth. That is not the same meaning as the one you suggested.
      Pope Gregory I was well known for his alms to the poor, and he gave quite generously of the riches donated to the Church by the wealthy people of Rome. Everything from money to land was given to the poor in some fashion. He made clear to his subordinates that their duty was to relieve the distress faced by the poor.

      He ordered his clergy to go out into the streets to find and care for the poor in person.

    12. #20
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      Quote Originally Posted by Confessional Lutheran View Post
      Geeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!! Lutherans sure need a lot of pages to define "sanctification"



      11 pages!

      I will read them some time, when I am in need of a Lutheran definition. But I will say that at least Lutherans have given the matter some thought.
      Pope Gregory I was well known for his alms to the poor, and he gave quite generously of the riches donated to the Church by the wealthy people of Rome. Everything from money to land was given to the poor in some fashion. He made clear to his subordinates that their duty was to relieve the distress faced by the poor.

      He ordered his clergy to go out into the streets to find and care for the poor in person.

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