Purgatory?

Andrew · Oct 24, 2017

MoreCoffee said:
Catholics do not call the books "apocrypha" for us they are simply holy scripture in the same way that the Gospel according to saint Matthew is. When discussing scripture with Jews and Protestants Catholics often use the word "deuterocanon" to point to the seven books excluded by Jews and Protestants (those books are 1 & 2 Maccabees, Judith, Tobit, Wisdom, Sirach, Baruch) Protestants and Jews also remove parts of two other books (those are Daniel and Esther).

If you stop and think for a moment you may realise that your hope of heaven includes the idea that in heaven you will be without sin and without any inclination to sin. Here on Earth you do sin and are inclined to sin. What happens to make that change in you? Catholics call the change having your sinful nature purged away and the state of having it purged away is called, by Catholics, purgatory. Paul speaks of having one's works proved (tested) by fire and the burning away of the "dross" so that what is "gold and precious stones" is all that remains. Paul's discussion of works and the judgement of God that is applied to one's works also mentions that the person who experiences this escapes "through fire". That is a good example of new testament scripture discussing being purged of sin. The passage reads:

1 Corinthians 3:9-15 For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building. 10 According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and another man is building upon it. Let each man take care how he builds upon it. 11 For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw-- 13 each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

The book of Enoch still exists. It is on the web. A search ought to find it for you. Catholics do not regard Enoch as canonical scripture.

I know the book of Enoch exist I was pretending to be a common folk without fancy internet lol
Oh the beauty of revelation.
The term "fire" is sadly used loosely I believe in all denominations. The NT indeed says that we will be baptised in fire as well.
Our God is a consuming fire and that fire is Love and that fire is Truth, it devours all lies and burns up all murderers. There is not everlasting "hell" for the bible states that murder is hate and that murderers have no eternity. God does not continually burn and never destroy, God burns them up quick and that personality will vanquish from all existence. However, ALL sinners WILL have there PART in the lake of ETERNAL FIRE and that fire is GOD, for our God is a consuming FIRE.
So indeed purgatory is just the Catholic view of this redeeming FIRE, its better than the eternal hellish punishment idea which turns a lot of people away from the church.
Perhaps the catholic church should reform this error and just call hell itself "purgatory" because its pretty close to the identity of hell than the eternal suffering off sinners in fire... again, sinners have no eternity and cannot burn in hell eternally, even hell itself is done away with in the lake of fire.
So you see I disagree slightly, the fire of God burns those who reject his love, it burns because they live in filthy sin and remain pitifully condemned. They have their part but that spirit of death will die, the followers of death will have no eternity neither in hell or heaven, that spirit is done away with in an instant... quick and swift.
Will they be tried in the fire? Yes.
Does the fire last forever? Yes.
Does the sinner last forever? No.
I view Catholic purgatory as an infant that needs to grow out of the old ideas of eternal damnation of everlasting hell and replace it officially, this is purgatory, we are tried here and now. There is no Catholic hell.

MoreCoffee · Oct 24, 2017

MennoSota said:
...
... with purgatory.

1 Corinthians 3:9-15 For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building. 10 According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and another man is building upon it. Let each man take care how he builds upon it. 11 For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw-- 13 each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

MennoSota · Oct 24, 2017

MoreCoffee said:
Catholics do not call the books "apocrypha" for us they are simply holy scripture in the same way that the Gospel according to saint Matthew is. When discussing scripture with Jews and Protestants Catholics often use the word "deuterocanon" to point to the seven books excluded by Jews and Protestants (those books are 1 & 2 Maccabees, Judith, Tobit, Wisdom, Sirach, Baruch) Protestants and Jews also remove parts of two other books (those are Daniel and Esther).

If you stop and think for a moment you may realise that your hope of heaven includes the idea that in heaven you will be without sin and without any inclination to sin. Here on Earth you do sin and are inclined to sin. What happens to make that change in you? Catholics call the change having your sinful nature purged away and the state of having it purged away is called, by Catholics, purgatory. Paul speaks of having one's works proved (tested) by fire and the burning away of the "dross" so that what is "gold and precious stones" is all that remains. Paul's discussion of works and the judgement of God that is applied to one's works also mentions that the person who experiences this escapes "through fire". That is a good example of new testament scripture discussing being purged of sin. The passage reads:

1 Corinthians 3:9-15 For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building. 10 According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and another man is building upon it. Let each man take care how he builds upon it. 11 For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw-- 13 each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

The book of Enoch still exists. It is on the web. A search ought to find it for you. Catholics do not regard Enoch as canonical scripture.

A perfect example of eisegesis where a person forces a man-made concept on the text.
Again, the church at Rome did not originally accept the apocrypha. It was tossed in later.
Most churches saw these writings as secondary writings that could be beneficial, but we're not given by inspiration of God. They recognized the contradictions in the writings that made them noncanonical. Rome forced them in as a means of pulling bad theology out of their magic cap.

MoreCoffee · Oct 24, 2017

DHoffmann said:
...
I view Catholic purgatory as an infant that needs to grow out of the old ideas of eternal damnation of everlasting hell and replace it officially, this is purgatory, we are tried here and now. There is no Catholic hell.

Catholics do not teach eternal purgatory. Only those who will be in heaven pass through purgatory. The "duration" is finite and possibly "lasts but an instant". Catholics do teach eternal punishment in "hell".

MoreCoffee · Oct 24, 2017

MennoSota said:
A perfect example of eisegesis ...

Careful or you will wear out that shiny new word

Cassia · Oct 24, 2017

MoreCoffee said:
Okay. But the question may produce several divergent answers. For example you said that the word "sanctification" covers the transition from earthly imperfection to heavenly perfection. Most Calvinist theologies use the word "sanctification" to mean that slow and often difficult process of becoming less sinful in this life on this earth. That is not the same meaning as the one you suggested.

From old nature to whatever degree of perfection is obtained. Because it's a command to be thou perfect, sanctification needs co-operation. Not sure that's possible in pergatory ... to partake of the suffering as a willing member?

I don't have time to get caught up into a discussion right now but that is the correct term. Co-operatively becoming less sinful is the progression of the process of sanctification. Pergatory otoh, ya'll can't see the forest for the rewards trees

MennoSota · Oct 24, 2017

DHoffmann said:
So indeed purgatory is just the Catholic view of this redeeming FIRE, its better than the eternal hellish punishment idea which turns a lot of people away from the church.

No it's not better. It's a means by which millions of people are lead straight into hell. It's a teaching that is entirely man-centered and castrates grace by lying to people that they can achieve heaven after they are already dead. It's insidiously evil and straight from hell.

Andrew · Oct 24, 2017

MoreCoffee said:
Catholics do not teach eternal purgatory. Only those who will be in heaven pass through purgatory. The "duration" is finite and possibly "lasts but an instant". Catholics do teach eternal punishment in "hell".

Yes I understand the finite as I was taught to CCD before I was confirmed. Thats the idea I like, eternal hell however is misunderstood in my view

MennoSota · Oct 24, 2017

MoreCoffee said:
Careful or you will wear out that shiny new word

Sadly, you don't know what it means, just as you don't understand grace or sanctification. [emoji41]

Andrew · Oct 24, 2017

MennoSota said:
No it's not better. It's a means by which millions of people are lead straight into hell. It's a teaching that is entirely man-centered and castrates grace by lying to people that they can achieve heaven after they are already dead. It's insidiously evil and straight from hell.

Let their conscious ride them until their death, and God will judge them accordingly.
Those who love indulgence to hate and sin have their reward here on Earth for a very short time (not eternally) we however seek the eternal reward in Heaven, there is a difference.
Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
1 John 3:15

Andrew · Oct 24, 2017

MoreCoffee · Oct 24, 2017

Cassia said:
From old nature to whatever degree of perfection is obtained. Because it's a command to be thou perfect, sanctification needs co-operation. Not sure that's possible in pergatory ... to partake of the suffering as a willing member?

Purged from all sins and from all inclination towards sin is what Purgatory is about.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire: As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgement, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offences can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.

1472 To understand this doctrine and practise of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the "eternal punishment" of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the "temporal punishment" of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.

1475 In the communion of saints, "a perennial link of charity exists between the faithful who have already reached their heavenly home, those who are expiating their sins in purgatory and those who are still pilgrims on earth. between them there is, too, an abundant exchange of all good things." In this wonderful exchange, the holiness of one profits others, well beyond the harm that the sin of one could cause others. Thus recourse to the communion of saints lets the contrite sinner be more promptly and efficaciously purified of the punishments for sin.

Have a look at the surrounding passages in your printed copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church so that you will have the context for the sections I posted above. I hope it is helpful reading for you.

MoreCoffee · Oct 24, 2017

Cassia said:
... Pergatory otoh, ya'll can't see the forest for the rewards trees

I do not think that there are any trees

Cassia · Oct 24, 2017

MoreCoffee said:
Purged from all sins and from all inclination towards sin is what Purgatory is about.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire: As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgement, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offences can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.

1472 To understand this doctrine and practise of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the "eternal punishment" of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the "temporal punishment" of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.

1475 In the communion of saints, "a perennial link of charity exists between the faithful who have already reached their heavenly home, those who are expiating their sins in purgatory and those who are still pilgrims on earth. between them there is, too, an abundant exchange of all good things." In this wonderful exchange, the holiness of one profits others, well beyond the harm that the sin of one could cause others. Thus recourse to the communion of saints lets the contrite sinner be more promptly and efficaciously purified of the punishments for sin.

Have a look at the surrounding passages in your printed copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church so that you will have the context for the sections I posted above. I hope it is helpful reading for you.

I edited the other post. Besides a book on ECF the only other catholic book I have is about Christ.

Andrew · Oct 24, 2017

MennoSota said:
No it's not better. It's a means by which millions of people are lead straight into hell. It's a teaching that is entirely man-centered and castrates grace by lying to people that they can achieve heaven after they are already dead. It's insidiously evil and straight from hell.

Refer to my latter post. The Catholic term purgatory would be well fitted for this world as we are all baptised in the fire unto purity, sinners have no eternal life so the medieval ideas of hell need to die. All sinners (even we) WILL have our PART in the lake of FIRE that burns forever and ever! Not all sinners will burn forever ever and ever in hell for hell will be burnt up in the lake of FIRE, our GOD IS A CONSUMING FIRE. We are tried here and now in the fire of God and are judged accordingly to our works if we are to continue in everlasting fellowship with God ot to be quickly burnt up never to return for all eternity

Josiah · Oct 24, 2017

MoreCoffee said:
Purged from all sins and from all inclination towards sin is what Purgatory is about.

1031 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent.

The RCC is correct here. It's a UNIQUE doctrine found in only one denomination. And it's very late, formulated LONG after its split with the East, developed at two denomination meetings in the 15th and 16th Centuries.

See post # 13

.

MennoSota · Oct 24, 2017

DHoffmann said:
Let their conscious ride them until their death, and God will judge them accordingly.
Those who love indulgence to hate and sin have their reward here on Earth for a very short time (not eternally) we however seek the eternal reward in Heaven, there is a difference.
Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
1 John 3:15

Indeed, the hate shown by the RCC in spreading a lie rather than teaching God's word shows there is no eternal life in their words.
Sola

Andrew · Oct 24, 2017

We are to be buried with Christ in three manners, water spirit and [emoji91]

MoreCoffee · Oct 24, 2017

Cassia said:
I edited the other post. Besides a book on ECF the only other catholic book I have is about Christ.

Did you dispose of the Catechism I recommended to you. The one called The Teaching of Christ?

MennoSota · Oct 24, 2017

MoreCoffee said:
Purged from all sins and from all inclination towards sin is what Purgatory is about.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire: As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgement, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offences can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.

1472 To understand this doctrine and practise of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the "eternal punishment" of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the "temporal punishment" of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.

1475 In the communion of saints, "a perennial link of charity exists between the faithful who have already reached their heavenly home, those who are expiating their sins in purgatory and those who are still pilgrims on earth. between them there is, too, an abundant exchange of all good things." In this wonderful exchange, the holiness of one profits others, well beyond the harm that the sin of one could cause others. Thus recourse to the communion of saints lets the contrite sinner be more promptly and efficaciously purified of the punishments for sin.

Have a look at the surrounding passages in your printed copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church so that you will have the context for the sections I posted above. I hope it is helpful reading for you.

You realise, of course, that you are quoting a catechism that changes and contradicts itself so much that it would take years to straighten out the pretzel the RCC has created. Again, it's no different than Muslim methods designed to chain people in bondage under their teaching.
Why do you place faulty catechisms above God's word?

Purgatory?

Matt 18:15

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simul justus et peccator

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