Christianity and Evangelicalism

Imalive · Oct 22, 2017

We don't want believers from other churches. We rather get the lost in. It's so stupid. We were in another town years ago w lets say 10 evangelical churches or so and wanted to do stuff together, unity, get the city saved. Well nope. This is my kingdom and my sheep. Gosh we did that once w a bunch of churches cause an evangelist came and everyone wanted to get some new members who got saved in the meeting from the big evangelist. Then afterwards, nope these are mine, well you can get that one then. Crazy.

Josiah · Oct 22, 2017

MennoSota said:
Here's a good discussion from the White Horse Inn regarding the similarities between liberal Christianity and Evangelical Christianity.
It's a good discussion on why people are leaving evangelical churches and moving toward orthodox churches despite the theological flaws of the orthodox churches. Take a listen before responding.
https://www.whitehorseinn.org/show/christianity-evangelicalism/

Excellent....

I used to listen to the White Horse Inn..... kinda forgot about them, thanks for the reminder! Always VERY insightful and profound, as is this one.

I agree too that those who (for whatever reason) leave Evangelicalism, simply don't know about the Reformation or theology.... so where are they going to go? I suspect most go nowhere.

In MY case, my passion for theology, my embrace for liturgical worship and the Sacraments... made Evangelicalism never an option as I joined the 30 million Ex-Catholics on the well-traveled road out of Roman Catholicism. Even the central issue of salvation didn't come into play because I didn't know the Reformation position, I thought ALL Christians believed that God helps those who help themselves, that God opened the gate to heaven but we gotta get ourselves through it. Learning the Gospel was a surprise to me, I didn't know what the Reformation proclaimed, I just didn't know the most important part of theology - salvation. I think THAT issue is pretty close between Catholicism and Evangelicalism, they both are close too in the emphasis on what PEOPLE think and feel rather than on Christ. But I'm not sure why Catholicism would appeal to Evangelicals (other than the "meat" of worship) and obviously, not in great numbers (not with 30 MILLION ex-Catholics right now just in the USA).

Again, good stuff. Thanks for sharing!

- Josiah

.

Imalive · Oct 22, 2017

Josiah said:
My brother goes to a HUGE "Evangelical" church... and yes, while they gain huge numbers of people every week (most from the unchurched), they also loose enormous numbers every week. I mean, how can you have 100 first time local guests every week (and they do)... and not be growing? My bro is an exception; most of their "converts" are non-practicing Christians - many of them new to Christianity. So in that sense, they do ENORMOUS evangelism, bringing LOTS in.
but yes, they don't tend to retain them for long. I SUSPECT (but I don't know) many find it.... empty. I don't know where all their "exits" go.

My Lutheran parish is about half former Catholics. Most of the rest are cradle Lutherans - but there are converts from Baptists and other mainstream churches, but not too many "Evangelicals." One couple, a Hispanic family, were both raised Catholic but returned to Christianity via a big Evangelical church in town and then became Lutherans (that was before I joined this church).

My Catholic parish had a FEW converts from other backgrounds. Amazingly few.... I'd guess 90% or so were cradle Catholics. The "converts" that I knew of were all Protestants or unchurched who married a Catholic and, for the sake of unity and the family, became Catholic (a couple I'm thinking of, very passionately Catholic). There's a popular joke of sorts in Catholicism that Catholic evangelism is all done by good Catholic wives - and I witnessed a lot of truth in that. We had a fairly significant RCIA group every year (that's the official church membership/adult confirmation group in Catholicism - basically adults converting) but it was always spouses. Obviously, this doesn't make up for all the exits: there are some 30 MILLION former Catholics just in the USA right now: Ex-Catholics, people who LEFT the RCC, are the second largest religious group in American - roughly the size of the two largest Protestant denominations combined, almost as large as all of Evangelicalism in America combined, EX-Catholics (like me and a few others here at CH) so I don't think they are flooding there, although I'm sure a few do.

- Josiah

.

Really? That's a pity.
If you don't immediately contact em and keep contact and encourage em to go to lessons and small groups you lose em again.
I went to one big evangelical church once. They were smart. They had a bunch of ppl walking there who'd immediately walk up to you and ask you questions if you came there for the first time. Also been to a lot, most, where they just ignore you and you come a few times, but it isnt cosy if you know nobody, so ppl leave again.

ImaginaryDay2 · Oct 22, 2017

MennoSota said:
People go to Roman Catholicism because they don't understand theology and the reason for the Reformation.

Or because they are intelligent enough to have taken time to study and understand both, and have come to a conclusion on the matter. The issue of "morally relativistic deism" (I think that was the term they used in the program) is forcing folks away from evangelicalism, to be sure, but also from certain liturgical churches for the same reason - the desire of some (not all...) to be culturally relevant, and liberal, at the expense of the gospel of the shed blood and resurrection of Christ.
As an example, I am rather drawn to the Lutheran church at the moment, but to find a purely 'liturgical' Lutheran service would require me to drive an hour each way every week. All others have made a decision to change to a more palatable 'modern' or 'mixed' worship style, a major reason I left the evangelical church. Locally, the only conservative, liturgical churches are 'St. Mary's Catholic' parish, and an E.O. mission. Somehow, it's not hard to understand why folks are "skipping over" the Lutheran churches, as the speakers mentioned.

MoreCoffee · Oct 22, 2017

ImaginaryDay2 said:
Or because they are intelligent enough to have taken time to study and understand both, and have come to a conclusion on the matter. The issue of "morally relativistic deism" (I think that was the term they used in the program) is forcing folks away from evangelicalism, to be sure, but also from certain liturgical churches for the same reason - the desire of some to be culturally relevant, and liberal, at the expense of the gospel of the shed blood and resurrection of Christ.

For me Catholicism offers a wide variety of community involvements a well structured theology and plenty of room for independent and innovative thought without abandoning the teaching of Christ.

MennoSota · Oct 22, 2017

ImaginaryDay2 said:
The issue of "morally relativistic deism" (I think that was the term they used in the program) is forcing folks away from evangelicalism, to be sure, but also from certain liturgical churches for the same reason - the desire of some (not all...) to be culturally relevant, and liberal, at the expense of the gospel of the shed blood and resurrection of Christ.

I agree this is an issue within many denominations, including the Roman church. The two Roman church Universities in the Twin Cities are extremely liberal, and ecumenical to the point that one University just spent $50,000 on hand washing troughs for Muslims so they could participate in ritual prayers on campus. Many of the Roman church parishes are fully supportive of homosexual members and lifestyles, which is contrary to the RCC catechism.

MennoSota · Oct 22, 2017

MoreCoffee said:
For me Catholicism offers a wide variety of community involvements a well structured theology and plenty of room for independent and innovative thought without abandoning the teaching of Christ.

Unfortunately for you the catechism is a portrait of conflicting statements that simultaneously confirm and wipe out statements so that the reader is left to wonder if the pope and council have any clue what they really believe.

Josiah · Oct 22, 2017

ImaginaryDay2 said:
. Somehow, it's not hard to understand why folks are "skipping over" the Lutheran churches, as the speakers mentioned.

Where I live, Reformation churches just aren't on the "radar" of folks. They know about the BIG mega "Evangelical Churches" that seem to dominate everything, and they know about the big Catholic parishes. Everything else is just.... "the others." They don't tend to be really big churches, they don't tend to be in the news much, and since today very few people (including very few Christians) know much about theology or history - they just have little idea what Lutherans or Reformed or Anglican churches are about. As I've experienced it, that's why people "skip over" the mainstream churches. Now, I suspect it's different in St. Paul, MN. I wish more Christians were theologically and historically trained, more aware of the various positions, but I don't think that's typically true (current company excepted, of course, lol)

ImaginaryDay2 · Oct 22, 2017

MennoSota said:
I agree this is an issue within many denominations, including the Roman church. The two Roman church Universities in the Twin Cities are extremely liberal, and ecumenical to the point that one University just spent $50,000 on hand washing troughs for Muslims so they could participate in ritual prayers on campus. Many of the Roman church parishes are fully supportive of homosexual members and lifestyles, which is contrary to the RCC catechism.

It seems that relativism can affect any movement within (broadly) orthodox Christianity (small 'o'). The surprising thing I dwell on quite a bit was my time in the UPC and how a number of the churches stood so strongly against this type of relativism and cultural influence. If nothing else, they were absolutely consistent in this aspect, although in serious doctrinal error.

Imalive · Oct 23, 2017

MennoSota said:
I agree this is an issue within many denominations, including the Roman church. The two Roman church Universities in the Twin Cities are extremely liberal, and ecumenical to the point that one University just spent $50,000 on hand washing troughs for Muslims so they could participate in ritual prayers on campus. Many of the Roman church parishes are fully supportive of homosexual members and lifestyles, which is contrary to the RCC catechism.

Also protestant churches here. We have so many different reformed here. Dutch reformed, old reformed, set free reformed, so set free and reformed are some that gays may preach. I don't know in which denomination liberalism is the worst. I've been accused on a Dutch reformed forum that we evangelicals are more legalist than reformed lol.

MoreCoffee · Oct 23, 2017

MennoSota said:
Unfortunately for you the catechism is a portrait of conflicting statements that simultaneously confirm and wipe out statements so that the reader is left to wonder if the pope and council have any clue what they really believe.

Please, do not pin you poor reading on the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC). If you don't understand it then try The Teaching of Christ - a Catholic Catechism for Adults. I never have any trouble with the CCC. It's not hard to understand. All it takes is high school level comprehension of written English and a mind not entirely opposed to the truth.

MennoSota · Oct 23, 2017

MoreCoffee said:
Please, do not pin you poor reading on the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC). If you don't understand it then try The Teaching of Christ - a Catholic Catechism for Adults. I never have any trouble with the CCC. It's not hard to understand. All it takes is high school level comprehension of written English and a mind not entirely opposed to the truth.

If you have no problem with the catechism then you have no problem with double-speak and contradiction.

Josiah · Oct 23, 2017

MennoSota said:
If you have no problem with the catechism then you have no problem with double-speak and contradiction.

Not wanting to derail this thread, but.... to your point, MennoSota -

The Official Catechism of the RC Denomination is constantly evolving and changing.... and it's a bit different in different countries and languages depending on what the bishops there want it to say. My edition is from 1994 (I don't know if it is still the official, latest edition - the denomination was already working on a new replacement years ago, it might be out by now). And it's big.... some 800 pages long.... 2,865 points in it. * Do you think Catholics actually READ this thing? Well, surprisingly SOME do (I did - including the tiny, microscopic footnotes and the references in them), but not many. And of course, all realize this is ever-changing, ever-evolving... and just a brief summery that the bishops in the country WANT it to convey to the laity - every Catholic knows that. It's just the tip of the iceberg, too. A lot of the more controversal stuff is largely passed over, for example while the word "Transubstantiation" is found there (only once or twice if I recall), the doctrine is entirely absent. Same with Purgatory. If you are interested, you can learn these things but not in the Catechism and not from any classes in your parish. Those 800 pages are pretty selective, and ever-changing. All Catholics know that. And as we're discussing in this thread, Catholics are poorly trained in theology and generally don't care about such stuff - JUST AS is generally the case in most of Christianity these days.

Another "problem" in Catholicism is that sometimes, it's profoundly messy. No where is that more true that in the denomination's teaching on justification (THE most important teaching of all, the foundation and cornerstone and keystone of all Christianity, THE one issue that needs to be clearest of all for all - it's the most blurry, muddy one in all of Catholicism). It seems to me.... if you dig.... you can find almost ANY and ALL possible teachings regarding this - all mixed up. It's an entanged MESS. Can you find solid, Biblical, even the Lutheran view? Absolutely - if you dig and are quite selective. But then you can find any view on this. I don't think the Pope in Rome knows what the Catholic position is on this; if you asked the Pope that Kennedy question ("If you were to die tonight and stand before God and God said to you 'why should I let you into heaven'?") I think he would say, "Huh?" What the OFFICIAL position is of the current RC Denomination - I don't think that's knowable. But I CAN tell you what is typically TAUGHT (and I think every ex-Catholic and a LOT of current Catholics would agree with me): God helps those who help themselves.... Jesus opened the gate to heaven but you gotta get yourself through it.... you save yourself but only via the help you get - via the individual, exclusive RCC, the Treasury of Merits that the RCC owns and doles out, that Sacraments that the RCC owns and doles out, the intercession of the current list of official Saints of the RCC, the Queen of the RCC - these HELP you and empower you to save yourself (up to you if you adequately tap them and thus get yourself through those pearly gates). Is that the OFFICIAL position of the RCC? No one on earth knows. But is that what is taught in the RCC? Yup. With just enough contradition to confuse people (they sing a lot of Protestant hymns where the true Gospel is often proclaimed, they read verbatim from the Bible where the true Gospel is proclaimed, and I think sometimes Catholic pastors use Lutheran (or at least Protestant) sermons rather than writing Catholic ones, so Catholics get the typical Catholic teaching (very Pelagian and synergistic - in spite of the Council of Orange) AND they get sound stuff, too. Everyone ends up very confused. In the one thing Christians should be least confused about.

THAT said, at least the RCC has a Catechism! At least it has RCIA classes! If you ask a Catholic priest what the RCC teaches, you will get an answer (he'll hand you that 800 page book that you won't read because it's 800 pages long). In the typical Evangelical church, you'll get, "We just teach what the Bible does" and you'll find out it actually reflects the world, pop psychology and pop philosophy a lot more. There are notable and enormous exceptions, I"m sure.

Sorry for the interjection (sorta)

- Josiah

* I still have and use my 1994 USA Catechism... there's much good in it. I probably 100% agree with 95% of it, which my Catholic pastor told me is, "better than most Catholics."

.

Confessional Lutheran · Oct 23, 2017

Josiah said:
Not wanting to derail this thread, but.... to your point, MennoSota -

The Official Catechism of the RC Denomination is constantly evolving and changing.... and it's a bit different in different countries and languages depending on what the bishops there want it to say. My edition is from 1994 (I don't know if it is still the official, latest edition - the denomination was already working on a new replacement years ago, it might be out by now). And it's big.... some 800 pages long.... 2,865 points in it. * Do you think Catholics actually READ this thing? Well, surprisingly SOME do (I did - including the tiny, microscopic footnotes and the references in them), but not many. And of course, all realize this is ever-changing, ever-evolving... and just a brief summery that the bishops in the country WANT it to convey to the laity - every Catholic knows that. It's just the tip of the iceberg, too. A lot of the more controversal stuff is largely passed over, for example while the word "Transubstantiation" is found there (only once or twice if I recall), the doctrine is entirely absent. Same with Purgatory. If you are interested, you can learn these things but not in the Catechism and not from any classes in your parish. Those 800 pages are pretty selective, and ever-changing. All Catholics know that. And as we're discussing in this thread, Catholics are poorly trained in theology and generally don't care about such stuff - JUST AS is generally the case in most of Christianity these days.

Another "problem" in Catholicism is that sometimes, it's profoundly messy. No where is that more true that in the denomination's teaching on justification (THE most important teaching of all, the foundation and cornerstone and keystone of all Christianity, THE one issue that needs to be clearest of all for all - it's the most blurry, muddy one in all of Catholicism). It seems to me.... if you dig.... you can find almost ANY and ALL possible teachings regarding this - all mixed up. It's an entanged MESS. Can you find solid, Biblical, even the Lutheran view? Absolutely - if you dig and are quite selective. But then you can find any view on this. I don't think the Pope in Rome knows what the Catholic position is on this; if you asked the Pope that Kennedy question ("If you were to die tonight and stand before God and God said to you 'why should I let you into heaven'?") I think he would say, "Huh?" What the OFFICIAL position is of the current RC Denomination - I don't think that's knowable. But I CAN tell you what is typically TAUGHT (and I think every ex-Catholic and a LOT of current Catholics would agree with me): God helps those who help themselves.... Jesus opened the gate to heaven but you gotta get yourself through it.... you save yourself but only via the help you get - via the individual, exclusive RCC, the Treasury of Merits that the RCC owns and doles out, that Sacraments that the RCC owns and doles out, the intercession of the current list of official Saints of the RCC, the Queen of the RCC - these HELP you and empower you to save yourself (up to you if you adequately tap them and thus get yourself through those pearly gates). Is that the OFFICIAL position of the RCC? No one on earth knows. But is that what is taught in the RCC? Yup. With just enough contradition to confuse people (they sing a lot of Protestant hymns where the true Gospel is often proclaimed, they read verbatim from the Bible where the true Gospel is proclaimed, and I think sometimes Catholic pastors use Lutheran (or at least Protestant) sermons rather than writing Catholic ones, so Catholics get the typical Catholic teaching (very Pelagian and synergistic - in spite of the Council of Orange) AND they get sound stuff, too. Everyone ends up very confused. In the one thing Christians should be least confused about.

THAT said, at least the RCC has a Catechism! At least it has RCIA classes! If you ask a Catholic priest what the RCC teaches, you will get an answer (he'll hand you that 800 page book that you won't read because it's 800 pages long). In the typical Evangelical church, you'll get, "We just teach what the Bible does" and you'll find out it actually reflects the world, pop psychology and pop philosophy a lot more. There are notable and enormous exceptions, I"m sure.

Sorry for the interjection (sorta)

- Josiah

* I still have and use my 1994 USA Catechism... there's much good in it. I probably 100% agree with 95% of it, which my Catholic pastor told me is, "better than most Catholics."

.

Looks right to me. Well said. I was another of that notable minority of Catholics who actually read the CCC. You nearly did need a magnifying glass to read all the notations they had put there. My 1994 Catechism is somewhere with my Catholic Bible.. on a bookshelf or something. The Lutheran Study Bible, Concordia, the Book of Lutheran Confessions, the Lutheran Book of Prayers and CFW Walther's Law and Gospel have pride of place on my mantle now.

MennoSota · Oct 23, 2017

Josiah said:
Not wanting to derail this thread, but.... to your point, MennoSota -

The Official Catechism of the RC Denomination is constantly evolving and changing.... and it's a bit different in different countries and languages depending on what the bishops there want it to say. My edition is from 1994 (I don't know if it is still the official, latest edition - the denomination was already working on a new replacement years ago, it might be out by now). And it's big.... some 800 pages long.... 2,865 points in it. * Do you think Catholics actually READ this thing? Well, surprisingly SOME do (I did - including the tiny, microscopic footnotes and the references in them), but not many. And of course, all realize this is ever-changing, ever-evolving... and just a brief summery that the bishops in the country WANT it to convey to the laity - every Catholic knows that. It's just the tip of the iceberg, too. A lot of the more controversal stuff is largely passed over, for example while the word "Transubstantiation" is found there (only once or twice if I recall), the doctrine is entirely absent. Same with Purgatory. If you are interested, you can learn these things but not in the Catechism and not from any classes in your parish. Those 800 pages are pretty selective, and ever-changing. All Catholics know that. And as we're discussing in this thread, Catholics are poorly trained in theology and generally don't care about such stuff - JUST AS is generally the case in most of Christianity these days.

Another "problem" in Catholicism is that sometimes, it's profoundly messy. No where is that more true that in the denomination's teaching on justification (THE most important teaching of all, the foundation and cornerstone and keystone of all Christianity, THE one issue that needs to be clearest of all for all - it's the most blurry, muddy one in all of Catholicism). It seems to me.... if you dig.... you can find almost ANY and ALL possible teachings regarding this - all mixed up. It's an entanged MESS. Can you find solid, Biblical, even the Lutheran view? Absolutely - if you dig and are quite selective. But then you can find any view on this. I don't think the Pope in Rome knows what the Catholic position is on this; if you asked the Pope that Kennedy question ("If you were to die tonight and stand before God and God said to you 'why should I let you into heaven'?") I think he would say, "Huh?" What the OFFICIAL position is of the current RC Denomination - I don't think that's knowable. But I CAN tell you what is typically TAUGHT (and I think every ex-Catholic and a LOT of current Catholics would agree with me): God helps those who help themselves.... Jesus opened the gate to heaven but you gotta get yourself through it.... you save yourself but only via the help you get - via the individual, exclusive RCC, the Treasury of Merits that the RCC owns and doles out, that Sacraments that the RCC owns and doles out, the intercession of the current list of official Saints of the RCC, the Queen of the RCC - these HELP you and empower you to save yourself (up to you if you adequately tap them and thus get yourself through those pearly gates). Is that the OFFICIAL position of the RCC? No one on earth knows. But is that what is taught in the RCC? Yup. With just enough contradition to confuse people (they sing a lot of Protestant hymns where the true Gospel is often proclaimed, they read verbatim from the Bible where the true Gospel is proclaimed, and I think sometimes Catholic pastors use Lutheran (or at least Protestant) sermons rather than writing Catholic ones, so Catholics get the typical Catholic teaching (very Pelagian and synergistic - in spite of the Council of Orange) AND they get sound stuff, too. Everyone ends up very confused. In the one thing Christians should be least confused about.

THAT said, at least the RCC has a Catechism! At least it has RCIA classes! If you ask a Catholic priest what the RCC teaches, you will get an answer (he'll hand you that 800 page book that you won't read because it's 800 pages long). In the typical Evangelical church, you'll get, "We just teach what the Bible does" and you'll find out it actually reflects the world, pop psychology and pop philosophy a lot more. There are notable and enormous exceptions, I"m sure.

Sorry for the interjection (sorta)

- Josiah

* I still have and use my 1994 USA Catechism... there's much good in it. I probably 100% agree with 95% of it, which my Catholic pastor told me is, "better than most Catholics."

.

There is a lot of truth in what you say, Josiah. You hit on the double-speak I touched on. Indeed, every priest will interpret the catechism differently based upon which number he emphasizes over others.
You also touch on the ever evolving nature, which contradicts older versions and turns things inside-out. It seems this is purposeful so that the common person is ever dependent upon someone else to interpret the church teachings.
It is interesting to me, after reading Nabeel Qureshi's book "Seeking Allah, Finding Jesus" that Islam functions in a similar way. The number of hadith created to define "the way"(that is what hadith means) forces the average Muslim to be utterly dependant on their Imam for interpretation. Each Imam will then interpret the hadith in a different way, which leads to liberal or radical teachings regarding the way (hadith) to Allah. Meanwhile the common Muslim is left to ignorantly follow a teaching and be shamed by the community if they question or doubt the teachings.

Josiah · Oct 23, 2017

On the modern RC Denomination....

Expanding on post 33....

It must be remembered too that the modern RCC is very open and tolerant - not AT ALL the denomination it was 500+ years ago when it burned Christians at the stake, engaged in book burning, and issued excommunications right and left. It's has a "big tent" philosphy these days, and especially with the gushing blood it's focused on keeping people. So, you'll find liberalism, relativism and lots of things there you'd perhaps not expect. Varies a lot actually by diocese and country. Even the Eucharist - the sort of last holdout for "you gotta be really Catholic" - that's gone; the RCC doesn't teach it's Eucharistic dogma anymore (at least to laity) and while it still stresses Real Presence (hard!) it doesn't have close communion anymore in practice (Heck, I attended a Catholic funeral mass and the priest expressly INVITED the Protestants to participate, with ZERO word about "Real Presence"). I think (with the possible exception of being AGAINST the 1870 dogma of the Infallibility of the Pope), the typical Lutheran would be WELCOMED - as is, with all his current theology - in just about any Catholic parish. When I told my priest that I agreed with 95% of the Catechism but had some deep problems with some things there, he said "that's a whole lot better than most Catholics" and he was right. My (Lutheran) position on even the Eucharist is much closer to modern Catholic one than most of the Catholics I know. It's just not your grandpa's Catholic Church anymore.... What the White Horse Inn is talking about applies there, too. AND, yes, in way too much of Protestantism.

As for liberalism in Catholic education.... Well, most of that exists on the elementary school level. There, the teachers are all still TECHNICALLY Catholic and the RELGIION curriculum is still Catholic (although since a LOT of the students aren't Catholic anymore, it's watered down a lot so as to "fit" them too). I think on the elementary school level, it's still traditional Christianity and in many cases, quite Catholic. High School I think varies a LOT. But on the college level..... well...... from what I've been told..... it's VERY liberal. A friend of mine went to Catholic schools, preschool-high school. And got a scholarship to the very expensive University of San Diego (the Catholic college for the metro San Diego area). She not only found it not at all Catholic but quite anti-Catholic and after her frosh year, transfer to USCD (the secular state university close by) which she claimed was far more embracing of her as a Catholic than USD was. From what I've been told, since the 60's, the major Catholic universities have become quite liberal. There are still traditional Catholic colleges, but they tend to be tiny - not even Catholics want to go there. Of course, the same could be said for most Lutheran, Presbyterian and Methodist colleges too! There are still solidly conservative, traditional, Christian Protestant colleges (Concordia University - Irvine is in my area) but they tend to be small.

MoreCoffee · Oct 23, 2017

I am pretty sure that you did derail the thread there, [MENTION=13]Josiah[/MENTION]

MennoSota · Oct 23, 2017

MoreCoffee said:
I am pretty sure that you did derail the thread there, [MENTION=13]Josiah[/MENTION]

Nah, your first post did that. You didn't even listen to the podcast before chiming in with your bitter displeasure for all things Sola Scriptura.

MoreCoffee · Oct 23, 2017

MoreCoffee said:
The major flaws are in Evangelical theologies. But that is obvious enough. That is why evangelicals are leaving evangelicalism and heading for Liturgical worship. But it seems that evangelicals have a taste for Orthodoxy and not for Anglicanism nor for Lutheranism both being liturgical. Some move to Catholicism but not a huge number. Possibly because the Catholic Church is the historic and traditional "enemy" from an evangelical perspective. It only takes a few moments of examining John MacArthur's "grace to you" web site to see how hostile his brand of evangelicalism is towards Catholic teaching. He probably dislikes Orthodoxy too but seems to spend way more time berating Catholicism and Catholic practises. He also seems to dislike Pentecostalism - maybe as much as he dislikes Catholicism.

Such fun

:smirk:

MennoSota said:
Nah, your first post did that. You didn't even listen to the podcast before chiming in with your bitter displeasure for all things Sola Scriptura.

The first quote is my first post in this thread. The second quote is your untruthful statement about it.

Such is life

MennoSota · Oct 23, 2017

MoreCoffee said:
The first quote is my first post in this thread. The second quote is your untruthful statement about it.

Such is life

Thanks for sharing. My point is made. [emoji4]

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