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  • Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
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    Politics - Thread: Privacy

    1. #11
      MoreCoffee's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Albion View Post
      How does that represent an application of US law to other countries?
      The data is held in other countries and it is about people from other countries so what business is it of the USA DoJ?
      Saint Jude, author of the new testament letter.

      He is the patron of impossible causes because the scriptural Letter of St. Jude, which he authored, urges Christians to persevere in difficult times.

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    2. #12
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      Quote Originally Posted by MoreCoffee View Post
      The issue is not that Microsoft gathers information, everybody already knows that just like everybody knows that google gathers information, the issue is that the USA government through the Department of Justice wants to apply USA laws to people who are not USA residents by gathering data from overseas Microsoft servers. Microsoft is fighting against the DoJ claim.
      The thing is the issues are related. Microsoft gathers huge amounts of information, and nobody knows (I suspect the vast majority don't even think about it enough to care) what happens to that information. If Microsoft weren't gathering it in the first place the DoJ wouldn't be able to get their hands on it.

      As with many issues there are lots of twists and turns. Microsoft is a US-based corporation and it makes little sense to argue that US laws cease to apply to it just because it moved something virtual to another location. Allowing that sort of thing would mean that any company could evade just about any laws by setting up a server in some tinpot republic and then insisting laws didn't apply because the server was in Elbonia or some such. (Much like the way multinationals shuffle profits around, paying tax in the jurisdiction of their choosing).

      It's really no surprise that a government wants information. That's what governments do these days, they gather lots of information about us under the guise of keeping us safe. Sadly a lot of people swallow the lie and start bleating the "nothing to hide, nothing to fear" mantra.

      It is curious to see how many people are quite happy for Microsoft, Google, Faceache etc to have vast amounts of personal information about them but suddenly get agitated when the government wants the same information. In many ways I'm more concerned about the damage technology giants can do with my personal information than what the government might do with it. Just part of the reason I very seldom post anything except recycled memes on Faceache.
      "Do what thou will shall be the whole of the law" - Aleister Crowley

      "If you love me, obey my commandments" - Jesus Christ

      The Bible comes as a complete package. If we want to pluck verses out of context so make them mean what we want them to mean, if we want to ignore the passages that are inconvenient to our outlook, we should be intellectually honest enough to throw our Bibles in the trash and admit we are following Crowley and not Christ.

    3. #13
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      Quote Originally Posted by MoreCoffee View Post
      The data is held in other countries and it is about people from other countries so what business is it of the USA DoJ?
      I did not ask about "what business is it of the USA?"

      I asked about this statement--

      ...the issue is that the USA government through the Department of Justice wants to apply USA laws to people who are not USA residents by gathering data from overseas Microsoft servers....


      What application of US law to non-citizens in other countries would there be? If anything, it would be to NOT apply privacy guarantees to them that Americans expect.

    4. #14
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      Quote Originally Posted by Albion View Post
      I did not ask about "what business is it of the USA?"

      I asked about this statement--

      What application of US law to non-citizens in other countries would there be? If anything, it would be to NOT apply privacy guarantees to them that Americans expect.
      Never mind.
      Saint Jude, author of the new testament letter.

      He is the patron of impossible causes because the scriptural Letter of St. Jude, which he authored, urges Christians to persevere in difficult times.

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    5. #15
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      Agreed.

      It would amount to NOT extending to people of other countries one legal protection--in their own countries--that American citizens are guaranteed by US law. Is that wrong? Probably not.

    6. #16
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      Quote Originally Posted by MoreCoffee View Post
      The issue is not that Microsoft gathers information, everybody already knows that just like everybody knows that google gathers information, the issue is that the USA government through the Department of Justice wants to apply USA laws to people who are not USA residents by gathering data from overseas Microsoft servers. Microsoft is fighting against the DoJ claim.

      I think you are trying to impose that there is some ABSOLUTE and HUMAN right to privacy. You need to prove that.

      I suspect that the LIMITED "right" to privacy is - in some jurisdictions - a CIVIL right. People - by virtue of their being humans - are not born with some absolute HUMAN right to privacy, IMO. A legal jurisdiction (such as Australia) MIGHT, perhaps, extend SOME degree of privacy to SOME people (say non prisoners and non military personal 18 and over) but that's only in that jurisdiction and probably only for citizens of that country in that jurisdiction. It is a CIVIL "right". If civil rights were universal - then I'd be able to vote in Australian elections and you'd be able to be president of the USA. I think you get the point (even if you choose to ignore it or try to make a funny out of it).

      If you want to insist that privacy is an ABSOLUTE and HUMAN right - applying to all homo sapiens simply because they are homo sapiens (regardless of age, gender, citizenship, etc.) then I think you need to establish that. Otherwise, your premise is baseless.
      We are justified by works - just not our own.

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    8. #17
      Stravinsk is offline Composer and Artist on Flat Earth
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      Quote Originally Posted by Josiah View Post
      I think you are trying to impose that there is some ABSOLUTE and HUMAN right to privacy. You need to prove that.

      I suspect that the LIMITED "right" to privacy is - in some jurisdictions - a CIVIL right. People - by virtue of their being humans - are not born with some absolute HUMAN right to privacy, IMO. A legal jurisdiction (such as Australia) MIGHT, perhaps, extend SOME degree of privacy to SOME people (say non prisoners and non military personal 18 and over) but that's only in that jurisdiction and probably only for citizens of that country in that jurisdiction. It is a CIVIL "right". If civil rights were universal - then I'd be able to vote in Australian elections and you'd be able to be president of the USA. I think you get the point (even if you choose to ignore it or try to make a funny out of it).

      If you want to insist that privacy is an ABSOLUTE and HUMAN right - applying to all homo sapiens simply because they are homo sapiens (regardless of age, gender, citizenship, etc.) then I think you need to establish that. Otherwise, your premise is baseless.
      You are confusing rights that are self - evident (and a degree of privacy is one of them) and "special rights" - such as what the State can give. The State is not God and has no inherent authority but that which it is given by the people - and your constitution has this idea at it's very core. Pauline Christianity, on the other hand - is submissive to the State, and despite Christians thinking otherwise - really didn't found the USofA - Deists did. Yes, you can thank US (that is - how we think) for your freedom - because without Deism - there would be no USA - and you'd continue to pay taxes and homage to England and the British empire in general because according to various Biblical Scriptures - it was your duty to.


    9. #18
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      I think another issue is that people so willingly give up their privacy. Even if an absolute right to privacy does exist it doesn't override an individual's freedom to waive all or some of that privacy.

      If I decide I wish to make my name, address, date of birth, social security number etc, public I am free to do so. If I want to tell the world what I ate for breakfast I am free to do so. Having done so I lose any right to complain about the associated lack of privacy because I voluntarily made the information available.

      In many ways what the tech giants have done is merely provided something that offers convenience in exchange for privacy. People sign away their privacy, often by clicking the "I agree to the terms and conditions" button without even reading the terms and conditions, and then wonder why they have no privacy.

      Another associated issue is why the state has been allowed to come to believe that it has the right to whatever information it cares to demand, whether that be in the form of taking a census or expecting companies to hand over data on their users. Many bleat the endless "nothing to hide, nothing to fear" mantra as if enough repetition will make it true but it would make more sense for the state to be required to justify why it needs the information rather than merely hiding behind a vague assertion that national security is at stake unless it spies on each and every one of us.
      "Do what thou will shall be the whole of the law" - Aleister Crowley

      "If you love me, obey my commandments" - Jesus Christ

      The Bible comes as a complete package. If we want to pluck verses out of context so make them mean what we want them to mean, if we want to ignore the passages that are inconvenient to our outlook, we should be intellectually honest enough to throw our Bibles in the trash and admit we are following Crowley and not Christ.

    10. Likes Josiah liked this post

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