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    World Religion & Speculative Theology - Thread: The Triune God.

    1. #11
      MennoSota is offline Expert Member
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      Let's be clear.
      We have no evidence of Jesus teaching any creed.
      We have evidence of the early Christians teaching one short creed in 1 Corinthians 15. Beyond that, we can only say that the other creeds added later are human attempts to organize theology, which may be true, but are not given by inspiration of God as the creed in 1 Corinthians 15.

      1 Corinthians 15:1-4
      [1]Let me now remind you, dear brothers and sisters, of the Good News I preached to you before. You welcomed it then, and you still stand firm in it.
      [2]It is this Good News that saves you if you continue to believe the message I told you—unless, of course, you believed something that was never true in the first place.
      [3]I passed on to you what was most important and what had also been passed on to me. Christ died for our sins, just as the Scriptures said.
      [4]He was buried, and he was raised from the dead on the third day, just as the Scriptures said.

      This thread is to look at what God's word reveals about God as one being with three persons in the one being.

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    3. #12
      Albion's Avatar
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      Not so fast. We know where the "Apostles Creed" originated--as a baptismal confession in the very early church. And it is probably more widely used today than the Nicene Creed or any other.

    4. #13
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      We also have a baptismal hymn (or creed) in Philippians.

      He was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God as something to be exploited,
      but emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, being born in human likeness. And being found in human form,
      he humbled himself and became obedient to the point of death--even death on a cross.
      Therefore God also highly exalted him and gave him the name that is above every name,
      so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bend, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
      and every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.


      Which is rather like the creeds in its teaching about the incarnation.
      Pope Gregory I was well known for his alms to the poor, and he gave quite generously of the riches donated to the Church by the wealthy people of Rome. Everything from money to land was given to the poor in some fashion. He made clear to his subordinates that their duty was to relieve the distress faced by the poor.

      He ordered his clergy to go out into the streets to find and care for the poor in person.

    5. #14
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      https://confessionalism.wordpress.co...f-the-trinity/


      Doctrine, by its very nature, tends to articulate matters in words that aren't necessarily just verbatim quotes of Scripture. I believe that doctrine (especially de fide dogma) must be biblical and normed by the words of Scripture but need not be only verbatim quotes of such.


      To ME, the greatest of the Trinity is it's fundamental embrace of MYSTERY. It has come to be embraced that the Athanasian Creed (well, much of it) is the articulation of this doctrine. Frankly, while I affirm that Creed, I think there probably is language there that maybe goes a bit too far, but I "get" the point being made and fully agree with it.


      As we look at the MANY Scriptures, I think we find a MYSTERY. The Father is spoken of as God, called God, given God qualities and attributes, worshiped and gloried as God. Specifically, as THE FATHER. Same with the Son. Same with the Holy Spirit. Frankly, there's pretty solid biblical support for 3 Gods (and yes, some in the Early Church argued just that). Problem is, the Bible is a profoundly and boldly monotheistic book, the Bible itself boldly, clearly and repeatedly indicates there is but one God. Now, in the early centuries, there were numerous THEORIES about this (because human beings have a hard time shutting up, a hard time leaving well enough alone, convinced self is smarter than God and God should listen to self, This has been a problem in Christianity from Day One continuing to our own). Some argued there are 3 Gods but they are so united in thought, will and deed that we may SPEAK of them as sorta one (marriage was their analogy; the Bible says a husband and wife become "one"). Others argued that there is one God but He has 3 roles, takes, officies, ways of relating to us (they called these "persona" - the word for masks actors wore; we get our word "persons" from this). What the early Councils rejected was BOTH theories, indeed ALL theories! They embraced that the Bible is true - even though it is not understandable and leaves us with a whole lot of questions. It's MYSTERY. Physics can't explain it..... humans can't explain it.... and that's okay, we don't need to. Indeed, this was the response of many of these Ecumenical Councils (exactly the same approach to the other BIG debate of the day, the Two Natures of Christ).

      To ME, that's the glory of this view. It just accepts the MYSTERY. It embraces what the Bible says without trying to explain it or force it to fit our theories, philosophies and "physics" ideas. Those early Christians had the wisdom to accept what God says because He does..... to leave well enough alone..... to shut up. IMO, that's the humility soon lost as some (especially in the West) came to insist that God left out a bunch of important stuff and so appointed self as the One infallible, unaccountable, All-Wise One whom God leads/teaches and who alone is the infallible follower/student whom God alone appointed to clean up the mess God left behind. To quote my Greek Orthodox friend, "Christians forgot how to shut up." In the Trinity, they remembered.


      MY half cent.


      Pax Christi


      - Josiah
      We are justified by works - just not our own.

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    7. #15
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      The (relevant part) of the Athanasian Creed:



      That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the Persons; nor dividing the Essence. For there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son; and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one; the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is; such is the Son; and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreated; the Son uncreated; and the Holy Ghost uncreated. The Father unlimited; the Son unlimited; and the Holy Ghost unlimited. The Father eternal; the Son eternal; and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three eternals; but one eternal. As also there are not three uncreated; nor three infinites, but one uncreated; and one infinite. So likewise the Father is Almighty; the Son Almighty; and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties; but one Almighty. So the Father is God; the Son is God; and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods; but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord; the Son Lord; and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords; but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity; to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord; So are we forbidden by the catholic religion; to say, There are three Gods, or three Lords. The Father is made of none; neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created; but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten; but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is before, or after another; none is greater, or less than another. But the whole three Persons are coeternal, and coequal. So that in all things, as aforesaid; the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity, is to be worshipped.



      - Josiah




      .
      We are justified by works - just not our own.

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    9. #16
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      http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/trinity.html
      I posted this in the other thread but although I watch your video and website sources I see this as purposely skipped over.

    10. #17
      Albion's Avatar
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      Well, you know that's just one source's viewpoint--the product of an unknown Unitarian Universalist "Christian Fellowship." It doesn't actually settle anything. And as for the statements contained there, where to start? You cannot expect anyone to decide which of many claims you want a reply to.

    11. #18
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      This is what makes it so confusing:

      300px-Holy_Trinity_Template.jpg

      Now we have 4, a Trinity, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Just put the 3 circles over each other, because Jesus is in the Father, the Father is in Jesus, the Holy Spirit is in Jesus and you get just one circle, w 3 lines over each other and you understand why others just see one.

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    13. #19
      Albion's Avatar
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      I wouldn't put too much emphasis upon diagrams like that one. Yes, we often see them and they're an attempt to show something, but everyone knows that you cannot explain the nature of God with something like that.

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    15. #20
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      Quote Originally Posted by Imalive View Post
      This is what makes it so confusing:

      300px-Holy_Trinity_Template.jpg

      Now we have 4, a Trinity, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Just put the 3 circles over each other, because Jesus is in the Father, the Father is in Jesus, the Holy Spirit is in Jesus and you get just one circle, w 3 lines over each other and you understand why others just see one.
      Yes hallelujah thats how I see it, not three circles linked but overlayed as one

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