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    Politics - Thread: Voting your moral values.

    1. #21
      MoreCoffee's Avatar
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      Accepting the unproven propaganda put out by the pre-election Republican/Donald-trump campaign isn't exactly unbiased.
      Saint Jude, author of the new testament letter.

      He is the patron of impossible causes because the scriptural Letter of St. Jude, which he authored, urges Christians to persevere in difficult times.

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    2. #22
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      Quote Originally Posted by MoreCoffee View Post
      In the USA 71% of Evangelical Christians - a group usually associated with "moral values" in their voting - voted for Donald Trump. A man divorced and remarried several times, alleged to have made unwelcome and improper sexual advances to numerous women, who concealed his tax status both prior to the election and after it, and who is alleged to have had ties to foreign powers (specifically Russia) in the foreign powers' efforts to influence the USA presidential and congressional elections in November 2016. I am guessing the desire for a voice in the corridors of power in the USA trumped moral values for those voters. Which is odd when one considers that the moral values are allegedly Christian values which form a fundamental part of religious identity for Evangelical Christians in the USA.
      I think there were two key factors at play.

      The so-called "religious right", who sometimes seem to be named because they are always religious and always right (at least in their own minds) have a tendency to vote Republican without necessarily thinking much about it. The kind of people who, if faced with a choice between Jesus Christ (D) and Satan (R) would still vote for Satan because in their minds voting Republican is the Christian thing to do.

      Another factor is probably a sense that the Christian faith is under attack from those within government. Without a doubt some of this perception is fanciful and some of it is little more than a generic ruling that an employer cannot impose their beliefs upon their staff (to give an example, when Christian business owners were afraid that the ACA meant they would have to fund insurance policies that funded abortions nobody seemed to consider the implications of an exemption if, for instance, you needed a blood transfusion but couldn't have one because your boss was a Jehovah's witness and objected to that sort of thing). On the other hand matters like the issue of whether a Christian baker should be legally mandated to make a cake for a gay wedding are very polarising and, gay issue aside, look like a situation where the government will step in to protect one group who could easily go elsewhere, at the expense of another group.

      Finally, there's little point pretending Hillary Clinton was a saint. When even Democrat voters who bothered to turn out and vote for her still said they felt contaminated after doing so, and/or that they only did so to try and keep Trump out of office, it's not as if the country elected Trump in preference to other fine, upstanding candidates. It's clear Trump is no choirboy but the way the stench of corruption seems to cling to Hillary Clinton whatever she does, and large parts of her own party didn't want her as their candidate, it's not really surprising she didn't do very well.
      "Do what thou will shall be the whole of the law" - Aleister Crowley

      "If you love me, obey my commandments" - Jesus Christ

      The Bible comes as a complete package. If we want to pluck verses out of context so make them mean what we want them to mean, if we want to ignore the passages that are inconvenient to our outlook, we should be intellectually honest enough to throw our Bibles in the trash and admit we are following Crowley and not Christ.

    3. #23
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      Quote Originally Posted by tango View Post
      I think there were two key factors at play.

      The so-called "religious right", who sometimes seem to be named because they are always religious and always right (at least in their own minds) have a tendency to vote Republican without necessarily thinking much about it. The kind of people who, if faced with a choice between Jesus Christ (D) and Satan (R) would still vote for Satan because in their minds voting Republican is the Christian thing to do.

      Another factor is probably a sense that the Christian faith is under attack from those within government. Without a doubt some of this perception is fanciful and some of it is little more than a generic ruling that an employer cannot impose their beliefs upon their staff (to give an example, when Christian business owners were afraid that the ACA meant they would have to fund insurance policies that funded abortions nobody seemed to consider the implications of an exemption if, for instance, you needed a blood transfusion but couldn't have one because your boss was a Jehovah's witness and objected to that sort of thing). On the other hand matters like the issue of whether a Christian baker should be legally mandated to make a cake for a gay wedding are very polarising and, gay issue aside, look like a situation where the government will step in to protect one group who could easily go elsewhere, at the expense of another group.

      Finally, there's little point pretending Hillary Clinton was a saint. When even Democrat voters who bothered to turn out and vote for her still said they felt contaminated after doing so, and/or that they only did so to try and keep Trump out of office, it's not as if the country elected Trump in preference to other fine, upstanding candidates. It's clear Trump is no choirboy but the way the stench of corruption seems to cling to Hillary Clinton whatever she does, and large parts of her own party didn't want her as their candidate, it's not really surprising she didn't do very well.
      Hillary Clinton was not the only Candidate on the ballot besides Donald.
      Saint Jude, author of the new testament letter.

      He is the patron of impossible causes because the scriptural Letter of St. Jude, which he authored, urges Christians to persevere in difficult times.

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    4. #24
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      Quote Originally Posted by MoreCoffee View Post
      Two bad candidates from two parties but what about the Greens, independents, Libertarians, and whoever else ran? Surely at least one was better from a "moral values" point of view.

      You seem wholly ignorant about the election process in the USA. It's okay, you aren't a citizen here and none of this is of any concern of yours, but you do seem entirely unaware.

      To the topic: I cannot be someone different in the voting booth than I am in the pew (such would be a radical hypocrite). And of course, I didn't vote for ANYONE in the last presidental election of the USA. But on the other hand, functionally, if one IS going to vote, it's between the top two candidates and IS very often a case of "the lesser of the two evils." Perhaps rarely has that been more than case than in 2016. BTW, MoreCoffee, you have no reason whatsoever to know this or give a rip about this, but the other candidates running (Green, Peace, etc.) were no saints or obvious choices either - and everyone (including them) knew that a vote for them was a "throw away" vote, even in maybe the worse case of "two BAD choices" none of them got a single electorial vote - not one. You MAY perhaps not like how things work in the USA but then my advise would be don't move here (work instead to address the problems in YOUR chosen country?).


      My half cent


      - Josiah
      We are justified by works - just not our own.

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    6. #25
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      Quote Originally Posted by Josiah View Post
      You seem wholly ignorant about the election process in the USA....
      Nope. You got that wrong.
      Saint Jude, author of the new testament letter.

      He is the patron of impossible causes because the scriptural Letter of St. Jude, which he authored, urges Christians to persevere in difficult times.

      Hidden Content

    7. #26
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      A guy from church once went to America a few years and he said in the States I learned that you can best vote for a big party, otherwise you throw away your vote. So we were dumb to vote for our tiny perfect christian party that stands for everything you believe, no we had to vote for the big 'christian' party and not throw away our vote. Then we were really dumb cause we listened to him and those jerks made a mess of it, I was like: why on earth did I throw away my vote and give it to this party? Never again. But here they reign together, it's different. I'm afraid I'd have voted for Trump too just to get Hillary out. Glad I didnt have to vote there.

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    9. #27
      MennoSota is offline Expert Member
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      In the US we vote for someone who will represent our values and beliefs. This is done at all levels from President down to school boards.
      In the case of our executive office of President there are multiple people to choose from. If the US had a proportional system of winner there would be many viable candidates. However, the US has a winner-takes-all system, with a unique electoral college system thrown in to muddy it up.
      In a winner-takes-all format you end up with two viable parties and the rest become irrelevant.
      In the last election cycle the two elite parties provided me with no candidate that represented my values and beliefs. Therefore my conscience would not allow me to vote for either candidate. I knew my vote would be of no consequence to the outcome, but my conscience is clear. Our President does not represent my moral views or ideology. The rest of the people made their choice. I simply pray for the peace of the city.

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    11. #28
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      Quote Originally Posted by Imalive View Post
      A guy from church once went to America a few years and he said in the States I learned that you can best vote for a big party, otherwise you throw away your vote. So we were dumb to vote for our tiny perfect christian party that stands for everything you believe, no we had to vote for the big 'christian' party and not throw away our vote. Then we were really dumb cause we listened to him and those jerks made a mess of it, I was like: why on earth did I throw away my vote and give it to this party? Never again. But here they reign together, it's different. I'm afraid I'd have voted for Trump too just to get Hillary out. Glad I didnt have to vote there.
      I would not have voted for Donald. I might have voted for Hillary but probably wouldn't have. Most likely I would have voted for somebody not from the Democrats or the Republicans.
      Saint Jude, author of the new testament letter.

      He is the patron of impossible causes because the scriptural Letter of St. Jude, which he authored, urges Christians to persevere in difficult times.

      Hidden Content

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    13. #29
      Stravinsk is offline Composer and Artist on Flat Earth
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      Quote Originally Posted by MoreCoffee View Post
      In the USA 71% of Evangelical Christians - a group usually associated with "moral values" in their voting - voted for Donald Trump. A man divorced and remarried several times, alleged to have made unwelcome and improper sexual advances to numerous women, who concealed his tax status both prior to the election and after it, and who is alleged to have had ties to foreign powers (specifically Russia) in the foreign powers' efforts to influence the USA presidential and congressional elections in November 2016. I am guessing the desire for a voice in the corridors of power in the USA trumped moral values for those voters. Which is odd when one considers that the moral values are allegedly Christian values which form a fundamental part of religious identity for Evangelical Christians in the USA.
      Most US citizens I've heard from didn't think much of either major candidate from a moral perspective. I didn't.

      A note on your quote. Alleged does not equal "guilty of", nor does it carry any kind of weight in my mind. People allege things all the time, and this is national politics.

      Even if I lived in the USA (I'm a US citizen) I would not bother to vote. It's been a horse and pony show for a very long time. The shots (the important ones) are mostly called by big financial players. Presidents are there to give the people the illusion of power and choice.

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    15. #30
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      Quote Originally Posted by Josiah View Post
      You seem wholly ignorant about the election process in the USA. It's okay, you aren't a citizen here and none of this is of any concern of yours, but you do seem entirely unaware.

      To the topic: I cannot be someone different in the voting booth than I am in the pew (such would be a radical hypocrite). And of course, I didn't vote for ANYONE in the last presidental election of the USA. But on the other hand, functionally, if one IS going to vote, it's between the top two candidates and IS very often a case of "the lesser of the two evils." Perhaps rarely has that been more than case than in 2016. BTW, MoreCoffee, you have no reason whatsoever to know this or give a rip about this, but the other candidates running (Green, Peace, etc.) were no saints or obvious choices either - and everyone (including them) knew that a vote for them was a "throw away" vote, even in maybe the worse case of "two BAD choices" none of them got a single electorial vote - not one. You MAY perhaps not like how things work in the USA but then my advise would be don't move here (work instead to address the problems in YOUR chosen country?).


      My half cent


      - Josiah
      I have to agree with that. At the same time, I have to point out that this country was meant to be inclusive of all kinds of people from all walks of life. Of course I'll vote for a pro- life candidate, but I'll equally favor somebody who wants to make positive steps in cleaning up our environment. National Security and people following immigration laws that a host country sets up are important things and should be respected. Did I vote for Trump? Yes, yes I did. I know, shame on me, but at least Hillary didn't get in. The Butcher of Benghazi ( Clinton) was an unacceptable alternative. I didn't think much of Trump either ( but at least he wasn't Jill Stein) then and I think even less of him now. In point of fact, I think the Electoral College saved us because in point of fact, most of the American population does live in large coastal cities that are Democratic by tradition.

      Clinton would have wiped the floor with Trump if the populist vote actually determined who gets elected in the United States. Trump and Clinton both were fairly insulting about the other's teams base voting population. As I get to pray in Church and follow my own Confessional Lutheranism, I'd be hard put not to stand up for the right of the other fellow to pray ( or not) as he or she saw fit ( in all bounds of legality, of course). There is a serious racial divide in the US and while the Obama administration did expose that ( and political opportunists made it worse), the Trump administration is simply riding it, not trying to ease tensions ( that would actually be part of the administration's mandate, I'd think, to ease racial tensions in one's country) and that is one reason for my disgust for the regime now.
      Last edited by Confessional Lutheran; 09-27-2017 at 08:00 PM.

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