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  • Page 5 of 59 FirstFirst ... 345671555 ... LastLast
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    Denomination & Faith Movement Discussions - Thread: Gift of Tongues

    1. #41
      DHoffmann's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Lämmchen View Post
      I am not understanding why someone would lose faith in the Savior from people who are discussing doctrine. Why would anyone fighting make someone not want to believe in Jesus and His death and resurrection as well as forgiveness sins? No one should look to the Christians who are still in these sinful bodies to know whether the Christ is real. Look to the Christ Himself for assurance. Trust in His Word.
      Because when someone says for instance "speaking in tongues is satanic" I fear for that person, I never said that it questions MY faith. I'll just leave it at that.

      Sent from my LGLS755 using Tapatalk

    2. #42
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      Quote Originally Posted by Lämmchen View Post
      I am not understanding why someone would lose faith in the Savior from people who are discussing doctrine. Why would anyone fighting make someone not want to believe in Jesus and His death and resurrection as well as forgiveness sins? No one should look to the Christians who are still in these sinful bodies to know whether the Christ is real. Look to the Christ Himself for assurance. Trust in His Word.
      How about those who are not so strong in their faith or are starting out and then they get poisoned to something that is biblical and God inspired, even if you dont agree with it statements like that are counter productive, will definitely not lead to a positive discussion
      Isaiah 40:31

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    4. #43
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      Quote Originally Posted by DHoffmann View Post
      Because when someone says for instance "speaking in tongues is satanic" I fear for that person, I never said that it questions MY faith. I'll just leave it at that.

      Sent from my LGLS755 using Tapatalk
      So you disagree that there are forms of tongues that are from Satan?
      "Christianity does not require more work but more trust." Pr. Jonathan Fisk
      "Bearing fruit does not make you a branch. A branch is a branch because it grows from the vine." Pr. Jonathan Fisk
      "A Christian's life is not defined by what the Christian does. It is defined by Christ and what He has done for us." Pr. Rolf David Preus

    5. #44
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      Quote Originally Posted by psalms 91 View Post
      How about those who are not so strong in their faith or are starting out and then they get poisoned to something that is biblical and God inspired, even if you dont agree with it statements like that are counter productive, will definitely not lead to a positive discussion
      I pointed to Christ the Savior in my post. I'm not sure how that is counter productive. A positive discussion will always point to Jesus as Savior.
      "Christianity does not require more work but more trust." Pr. Jonathan Fisk
      "Bearing fruit does not make you a branch. A branch is a branch because it grows from the vine." Pr. Jonathan Fisk
      "A Christian's life is not defined by what the Christian does. It is defined by Christ and what He has done for us." Pr. Rolf David Preus

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    7. #45
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      Quote Originally Posted by Lämmchen View Post
      So you disagree that there are forms of tongues that are from Satan?
      No, but if it casts out your demons and you instantly give up sinful habits and turn away from sin then it is not of satan.

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    9. #46
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      Quote Originally Posted by Lämmchen View Post
      I pointed to Christ the Savior in my post. I'm not sure how that is counter productive. A positive discussion will always point to Jesus as Savior.
      Who is part of the trinity so if you come against a gift ofg the spirit rather than saying there are those who are counterfit but that the gift is still in operation and you should tewst the spirits before you call something of the devil, see the difference? I have seen way to many throw out toungues and being slain in the spirit just because they are blind and deaf where the spirit is concerned otherwise they would know the difference and lets not forget that God can take care of the fakes just fine
      Isaiah 40:31

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    11. #47
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      I see now. This is all in relation to Josiah's post on page one where he gave a history lesson that this speaking in tongues of an unintelligible language is not something that occurred past the writing of the New Testament up until 200 years ago. So it's a recent addition. The early Church Fathers did not speak in tongues such as in today's Pentecostal churches...they spoke in known languages.
      "Christianity does not require more work but more trust." Pr. Jonathan Fisk
      "Bearing fruit does not make you a branch. A branch is a branch because it grows from the vine." Pr. Jonathan Fisk
      "A Christian's life is not defined by what the Christian does. It is defined by Christ and what He has done for us." Pr. Rolf David Preus

    12. #48
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      Are prayer beads/rosary biblical? But its used for prayer correct?
      His post isnt justified to say tongues cannot be used today for worship, as long as its Jesus name. His name was repeated several times in the prayer and to me it felt more direct than praying in my mother tongue.

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    13. #49
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      Quote Originally Posted by DHoffmann View Post
      Are prayer beads/rosary biblical? But its used for prayer correct?
      They're used for keeping track of prayers, yes. What I understand from those who are strong advocates of tongues-speaking is that they are a gift from the Holy Spirit at the least and may--according to some people--be necessary if you are to be a complete or full-fledged Christian. I'd call that quite a difference.

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    15. #50
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      Quote Originally Posted by DHoffmann View Post
      Because when someone says for instance "speaking in tongues is satanic" I fear for that person, I never said that it questions MY faith. I'll just leave it at that.

      Sent from my LGLS755 using Tapatalk
      I would be concerned if someone said "speaking in tongues IS satanic" simply because the sound of someone speaking an unknown language could be the divine gift of tongues, it could be a demonic copy of the divine gift, it could be someone speaking a human language they knew, it could be someone uttering gibberish to look like they were speaking in tongues (anyone can close their eyes and whisper shundai, kushanda)

      It is not only prudent but essential to look at things going on in church and test them against Scripture, especially when spiritual forces are concerned. Jesus himself warned us of false christs and false prophets who would perform signs and wonders but look to lead us astray. If someone comes to us performing signs and wonders but clearly worshipping demons it would be pretty obvious they were a fake but the kind of person who looks good at first glance but, on digging deeper, is teaching contrary to Scripture should be challenged and, if they can't demonstrate how their teaching does align with Scripture, they should be rejected.

      We know that the devil can do things that look much like God's gifts. Where God gives the gift of prophecy the devil offers divination. Where God offers miracles the devil offers sorcery. The devil can provide physical healing that, on the face of it, may look much like a divine healing - it may only be later that the devil's price for the healing becomes clear.

      It's also not unheard of for charlatan preachers to fake healings. Whether that be down to a well-placed stooge, a "word of knowledge" that's sufficiently specific that people think it applies to them but sufficiently vague that the chances of getting a "hit" somewhere within the group are very high, or merely taking advantage of general misunderstandings of the nature of a specific disability. This latter point is particularly insidiou, because most people would assume that, for example, a wheelchair user cannot walk. The fact is that most wheelchair users can walk, albeit very unsteadily and only for very short distance. Once an audience has been subjected to an hour or more of repetitive upbeat music, encouraged to "expect great things" as a natural state of euphoria takes over, then sees someone in a wheelchair told to "get up and walk" and takes a few faltering steps before collapsing into the arms of the waiting assistants, the chances are enough people will assume they have genuinely observed a miracle that they will react accordingly - both in the form of getting into a higher state of emotional euphoria and also spreading the world about the "miracle" they witnessed. Of course the poor sap in the wheelchair is unlikely to have much of a voice after the fact when it's clear they were never healed at all, and indeed some would even blame them for "losing their healing" and the presumed lack of faith required to lose the healing that never happened.

      Twisting Scripture to create promises God never made can also be hugely destructive to faith. This might be something as simple as wrenching Job 22:28 out of context to suggest we can speak things into being, it might be the insistance that healing is guaranteed (typically based on a misapplication of Is 53:5 or Ps 103:3), it might be an insistance that speaking in tongues is the sign of someone having the Holy Spirit. What happens to someone's faith when they believe they can speak things into being, only to find that they cannot and apparently God doesn't honor their declarations? What happens to the faith of someone who was assured of healing only to struggle with an ailment over years or decades? What of the person who shows the fruit of the Spirit in abundance and demonstrates spiritual gifts but doesn't happen to speak in tongues? Of course one would hope a person mature enough to display fruit and gifts would reject the teaching that tongues are the only valid marker of the Holy Spirit's presence but it's always hard to tell what impact it will have on others, if they end up believing that the humble man who goes about God's work and shows no signs of speaking in tongues (and may even go as far as to say he doesn't speak in tongues) is actually not saved?

      In Deut 13 and Deut 18 we can see God's instructions of how to spot a false prophet. The first is simple - if the prophecy does not come to pass then God did not speak. The second is very different - if the prophecy comes to pass but the "prophet" then says "come, let us go after other gods" they are to be disregarded. That latter test is crucial - the fact a "prophetic word" came to pass doesn't prove anything, in and of itself. When I was involved in the occult there were times when I could, to an extent, divine the future and sometimes influence it with some precision. That didn't make it anything to do with God, because at the time I would have failed the second test.

      In Romans (I think Rom 16:17) Paul tells us to mark and avoid those who teach contrary to the gospel we received. Paul also challenged Peter in front of everyone. There is clearly a Biblical precedent to test against Scripture, to challenge error when we find it, and to reject those who teach us contrary to Scripture.

      Needless to say in churches that merely reject even the thought that the gifts may be intended for today there won't be any such excess, but such churches are also more likely to fall foul of "Do not quench the Spirit" and "Do not despise prophecies", as their interpretation of "test all things" is to reject anything that doesn't fit into their created order. The churches that are more open to God's spirit are the ones that need to be careful that it is God's spirit at work, rather than masquerading spirits or even peoples' imaginations.

      In that regard in some ways it's loosely like driving a car. If you never drive you will never be involved in a car accident, but you'll also not get anywhere in a hurry. If you do drive you get the benefits of the engine that carries you around but you have to be careful to operate the machine safely.
      "Do what thou will shall be the whole of the law" - Aleister Crowley

      "If you love me, obey my commandments" - Jesus Christ

      The Bible comes as a complete package. If we want to pluck verses out of context so make them mean what we want them to mean, if we want to ignore the passages that are inconvenient to our outlook, we should be intellectually honest enough to throw our Bibles in the trash and admit we are following Crowley and not Christ.

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