Gift of Tongues

Imalive · Sep 14, 2017

Albion said:
I hear you. But to respond to what I've voiced here, it really would be necessary to reply to the following that I wrote a couple of posts ago--

The description of the phenomenon as "methods or tools" was not mine, by the way. That wording came from post 55.

http://www.biblestudytools.com/topical-verses/bible-verses-about-speaking-in-tongues/

Albion · Sep 14, 2017

psalms 91 said:
Would you say that Paul worte under the inspiration of God? If so he talks of toungues as does Acts.

Well of course, but the question concerns the re-discovery of the concept of tongues (and the other gifts) by a few churches a couple of centuries ago.

The big issue is whether that was a genuine 're-gifting' by the Holy Spirit of the same tongues we read about in the Bible...or just an idea that a few people came up with. In church history, that was an era in which there were a lot of people thinking that there should be a renewal of something or other that the New Testament made mention of but which had long since ceased to be a normal part of church life.

Andrew · Sep 14, 2017

Albion said:
Well of course, but the question concerns the re-discovery of the concept of tongues (and the other gifts) by a few churches a couple of centuries ago.

The big issue is whether that was a genuine 're-gifting' by the Holy Spirit of the same tongues we read about in the Bible...or just an idea that a few people came up with. In church history, that was an era in which there were a lot of people thinking that there should be a renewal of something or other that the New Testament made mention of but which had long since ceased to be a normal part of church life.

It could be a sign from God.

_________________

1 Corinthians 14:22

22*Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is not for unbelievers but for believers.*

23*So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and inquirers or unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind?*

24*But if an unbeliever or an inquirer comes in while everyone is prophesying, they are convicted of sin and are brought under judgment by all,*

25*as the secrets of their hearts are laid bare. So they will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, “God is really among you!”
_________________

I'd say that as long as we are here and there are non believers in our midst that this is still valid today.

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Andrew · Sep 14, 2017

Btw my parents who are Catholics said that the Catholic church used to speak in tongues and prophesize in the spirit but that they ceased the practice decades ago. I believe all churches could have the gifts again if they would consider it.

Again thanks for your insights, God bless my friends.

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MoreCoffee · Sep 14, 2017

DHoffmann said:
Btw my parents who are Catholics said that the Catholic church used to speak in tongues and prophesize in the spirit but that they ceased the practice decades ago. I believe all churches could have the gifts again if they would consider it.

Again thanks for your insights, God bless my friends.

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Many parishes have members who practise charismatic gifts. My parish has a prayer group who do this. The group calls itself "El Shaddai prayer fellowship".

psalms 91 · Sep 15, 2017

Albion said:
Well of course, but the question concerns the re-discovery of the concept of tongues (and the other gifts) by a few churches a couple of centuries ago.

The big issue is whether that was a genuine 're-gifting' by the Holy Spirit of the same tongues we read about in the Bible...or just an idea that a few people came up with. In church history, that was an era in which there were a lot of people thinking that there should be a renewal of something or other that the New Testament made mention of but which had long since ceased to be a normal part of church life.

Gifts have never ceased, but fear marchs on

Albion · Sep 15, 2017

psalms 91 said:
Gifts have never ceased...

Well, that's a critical issue with this issue and one that I have been somewhat surprised to see sidestepped so far.

If tongues have ceased for all intents and purposes--or been interrupted--then it's quite reasonable to see the recent revival of interest in them in a few denominations to be artificial. If, on the other hand, they never ceased to be an important part of church life from the beginning until now, then your POV is probably correct. From my knowledge of history, however, I'd have to conclude that there is no doubt about the first of these views being the correct one.

Imalive · Sep 15, 2017

Albion said:
Well, that's a critical issue with this issue and one that I have been somewhat surprised to see sidestepped so far.

If tongues have ceased for all intents and purposes--or been interrupted--then it's quite reasonable to see the recent revival of interest in them in a few denominations to be artificial. If, on the other hand, they never ceased to be an important part of church life from the beginning until now, then your POV is probably correct. From my knowledge of history, however, I'd have to conclude that there is no doubt about the first of these views being the correct one.

Yes well more things ceased. The church became an institution cause christians didn't want to be persecuted anymore. That is not cease because God wants it, but because man wants it.
As far as I know the perfect hasn't come yet.

Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.

Albion · Sep 15, 2017

Imalive said:
Yes well more things ceased.

But the topic here is tongues-speaking, not gifts in general.

And the leading claim or "proof" that is advanced by today's believers in tongues-speaking is that the Bible seems to say that tongues will not cease (as though that makes any kind of forced or garbled speech be a genuine gift). But if the phenomenon died off after the purpose for which the Holy Spirit gave the infant church this gift was accomplished, then that argument is stillborn.

Andrew · Sep 15, 2017

The gifts are separate parts of the body of Christ, example tongues need and interpreter or you are just a wind instrument with no distinction of notes.
These gifts were to keep the church together and undivided.
As long as there are potentials in unbelievers to become believers the gifts are still in affect. Just as some Catholic church's have continued the practice not just a protestant church. Love should unite the churches is what Im trying to get at.

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Albion · Sep 15, 2017

DHoffmann said:
The gifts are separate parts of the body of Christ, example tongues need and interpreter or you are just a wind instrument with no distinction of notes.

I appreciate that comment, since many people who are strong defenders of tongues-speaking do not agree to that proviso.

These gifts were to keep the church together and undivided.

Well, the standard explanation is that tongues were given in order to facilitate the spread of the faith, much as happened on Pentecost.

Andrew · Sep 15, 2017

Look at how many souls were added at pentecost, i'd say it may be possible that it implies t to be an example of how effective these gifts are..

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Albion · Sep 15, 2017

DHoffmann said:
Look at how many souls were added at pentecost, i'd say it may be possible that it implies t to be an example of how effective these gifts are..

...except that there is no tongues-speaking going on today that is the same as the miracle that happened on Pentecost. Then, non-believers from many different lands heard Peter speaking as IN THEIR OWN LANGUAGES.

Lamb · Sep 15, 2017

Albion said:
...except that there is no tongues-speaking going on today that is the same as the miracle that happened on Pentecost. Then, non-believers from many different lands heard Peter speaking as IN THEIR OWN LANGUAGES.

This is what I was going to post...the language spoken was known to mankind in some part of the world.

Imalive · Sep 15, 2017

Lämmchen said:
This is what I was going to post...the language spoken was known to mankind in some part of the world.

That's another sort of tongues. Still happens. But Paul also said if you speak in tongues in church and bystanders come they'll think it's rubbish, so that's exactly what we're doing today LOL.

Andrew · Sep 15, 2017

Albion said:
...except that there is no tongues-speaking going on today that is the same as the miracle that happened on Pentecost. Then, non-believers from many different lands heard Peter speaking as IN THEIR OWN LANGUAGES.

Peter had the gift of an Apostle, it doesnt go against what Paul preached.
John had a unique gift too, in complete solitude he prophesied to 7 churches and with no man interpreter but an angel sent by God interpreted parts of his visions.
Christ told them that they would perform miracles.

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Albion · Sep 15, 2017

DHoffmann said:
Peter had the gift of an Apostle, it doesnt go against what Paul preached.
John had a unique gift too, in complete solitude he prophesied to 7 churches and with no man interpreter but an angel sent by God interpreted parts of his visions.
Christ told them that they would perform miracles.

So...today's tongues are Biblical and Apostolic...except when they're not?

It's proving awkward to discuss this issue when there's no agreed-upon view of tongues among the very people who are advocating the practice.

Andrew · Sep 15, 2017

Imalive said:
That's another sort of tongues. Still happens. But Paul also said if you speak in tongues in church and bystanders come they'll think it's rubbish, so that's exactly what we're doing today LOL.

I got saved in that exact manner as Paul described lol

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Andrew · Sep 15, 2017

Albion said:
So...today's tongues are Biblical and Apostolic...except when they're not?

It's proving awkward to discuss this issue when there's no agreed-upon view of tongues among the very people who are advocating the practice.

the gift of Apostasy is mentioned among gifts.
Paul describes two types of tongues, unknown tongues to be interpreted for prophesy and foreign tongues to speak to foreigners.
He describes the cessation of gifts for a time if thats what you are wondering.
All gifts must cease as a tongue quites and the interpretation is finished and the prophesy fulfilled but the charity (or perpetual current) must continue so to edify the church and save the non believers.

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Albion · Sep 15, 2017

All right, but I did ask a question in posts 56 and 58 that never got an answer, so that's where I remain. I know that you've had a new experience and it's been good for you, but when we evaluate the highly controversial issue of tongues-speaking, it doesn't seem sufficient to me to simply dismiss the question of the genuineness of today's tongues by saying that they look kinda like the tongues we see referred to in scripture.

We wouldn't do that with all the other practices and doctrines of other denominations. We quite reasonably ask if they are Scriptural, not just popular or exciting. Whichever side of the issue a person is on, we want to know if infant baptism is right or not, if praying to saints is proper to do, if the communion bread is changed into Christ's real flesh, etc. etc. But when it comes to tongues-speaking, it seems that no one is supposed to question whether it's a genuine gift or not according to any of the half-dozen or so competing theories offered by Pentecostal Christians.

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