• Amused
  • Angry
  • Annoyed
  • Awesome
  • Bemused
  • Cool
  • Crazy
  • Crying
  • Depressed
  • Down
  • Embarrassed
  • Enraged
  • Friendly
  • Geeky
  • Grumpy
  • Happy
  • Hungry
  • Innocent
  • Meh
  • Piratey
  • Poorly
  • Sad
  • Secret
  • Shy
  • Sneaky
  • Tired
  • Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
    Results 1 to 10 of 30

    Ethics & Debate Center - Thread: How often does Christianity make people worse?

    1. #1
      hedrick is offline Apprentice Member
      69
      Single
      Mood:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2015
      Posts
      201
      CH Cash
      2,388
      CH Challenge
      3
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      1,716
      Level
      13
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      88.78%
      Rep Power
      53

      How often does Christianity make people worse?

      Christianity should make people more loving, more forgiving, more humble. But all too often it seems to make people worse, more like Pharisees that Christ.

      Illinois Bishop Decrees No Communion, Funeral Rites For Same-Sex Spouses

      Whatever kind of sinners gays may be (and personally I don't consider it sin), surely we should commend them to the mercy of God who loves them.

    2. #2
      Tigger's Avatar
      Tigger is offline Veteran Member
      57
      Married
      Mood:
      Piratey
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2015
      Posts
      1,178
      CH Cash
      56,880
      CH Challenge
      0
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      10,789
      Level
      30
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      79.69%
      Rep Power
      350
      Good ta see you hedrick.

      I for one do believe the act of homosexual sex is a sin but that its one of many sins and homosexuals shouldn't be treated at leopards. The problem comes when sin is unconfessed and there is no contrition concerning any particular sin. Keep in mind I also believe that a free government shouldn't be held to the same conditions of a particular religion. That all being said I don't believe its fair to lable a bishop or anyone for that matter as a pharisee due to holding to their exercise of religion. Personally I feel that smacks of freedom of religion and if anyone isn't beholden to the practices of a particular religious organization then they should find one that is and not try to force their own beliefs upon everyone else within that organization.

    3. Likes Josiah liked this post
    4. #3
      MoreCoffee's Avatar
      MoreCoffee is offline Gold Member
      Girding loins for the battle.
       
      Mood:
      Awesome
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2015
      Posts
      15,906
      CH Cash
      19,316
      CH Challenge
      695
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      43,178
      Level
      54
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      4.16%
      Rep Power
      673
      Quote Originally Posted by hedrick View Post
      Christianity should make people more loving, more forgiving, more humble. But all too often it seems to make people worse, more like Pharisees that Christ.

      Illinois Bishop Decrees No Communion, Funeral Rites For Same-Sex Spouses

      Whatever kind of sinners gays may be (and personally I don't consider it sin), surely we should commend them to the mercy of God who loves them.
      You ask How often does Christianity make people worse? I think it depends on the kind of Christianity one has in mind. Some kinds make many become religious zealots marked in part by bigotry. That kind of Christianity makes bad people worse and ties the hands of good people so that they do not do the good that they know in their hearts is necessary. Ian Paisley back in the 1980s and 1990s created a denomination and a political party that was of the sort I mentioned. Jim Jones of Jones Town infamy was another who created a denomination of the wicked sort. David Koresh is another who did the same. The Closed Brethren in Australia are another group that harms much more than it heals. There are some Catholic groups and break aways from the Catholic Church that also do more harm than good.

      But I think that the majority of Christian bodies, denominations, churches, meetings and so forth do as much good or more good than they do harm.

      PS: the bishop named in the link you gave appears on the face of it to be acting contrary to the Church's teaching that no unjust discrimination ought to be shown to same sex attracted people. I can understand the Church's position granting sacramental marriage only to Catholic couples constituted of a man and a woman because that is the phrasing used in both testaments when marriage is described and the Church cannot easily ignore the example and the teaching of Christ in her rites and ceremonies. But I see nothing in either testament that justified denying funeral rites to a same sex attracted person who has died especially if the person was a Catholic.

      I see no reason to use either the bible or holy tradition to harm people. God did not send Christ to harm but to heal. If the way one reads the bible teaches one to discriminate unjustly or to hate without proper cause or to harm then that way of reading the bible is wicked and wrong.
      Last edited by MoreCoffee; 06-24-2017 at 05:34 PM.
      Pope Gregory I was well known for his alms to the poor, and he gave quite generously of the riches donated to the Church by the wealthy people of Rome. Everything from money to land was given to the poor in some fashion. He made clear to his subordinates that their duty was to relieve the distress faced by the poor.

      He ordered his clergy to go out into the streets to find and care for the poor in person.

    5. Likes popsthebuilder liked this post
    6. #4
      hedrick is offline Apprentice Member
      69
      Single
      Mood:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2015
      Posts
      201
      CH Cash
      2,388
      CH Challenge
      3
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      1,716
      Level
      13
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      88.78%
      Rep Power
      53
      Let me be clear that this is not an attack on Catholics. Indeed I think what I'm talking about is less common among them than others. I just happened to run across that particular example today. And yes, I'm aware that it is contrary to the Pope's teaching.

    7. #5
      tango's Avatar
      tango is offline Bronze Member
      Valued Contributor
      Supporting Member
      Married
      ... and you shall live ...
       
      Mood:
      Bemused
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2015
      Location
      Elsewhere
      Posts
      6,236
      CH Cash
      2,715
      CH Challenge
      32
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (4,663,346 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      28,366
      Level
      45
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      83.49%
      Rep Power
      707
      Quote Originally Posted by hedrick View Post
      Christianity should make people more loving, more forgiving, more humble. But all too often it seems to make people worse, more like Pharisees that Christ.

      Illinois Bishop Decrees No Communion, Funeral Rites For Same-Sex Spouses

      Whatever kind of sinners gays may be (and personally I don't consider it sin), surely we should commend them to the mercy of God who loves them.
      As a rule the church should avoid sinfulness. I realise that much is obvious but it's worth setting it as a baseline. The trouble with sins relating to homosexual activity are that they are very visible, in ways that other types of sinfulness are not.

      The man who is abusing his wife, fiddling his taxes, gun-running, having affairs, or whatever, is unlikely to be visibly "a sinner" if you meet him or his wife. The man who introduces another man as his husband can immediately be tagged as a homosexual and, given the marital declaration, it's not unreasonable to assume their relationship is physical. From there it's easy for a minister to justify different treatment based on a desire to avoid sinfulness and avoid endorsing sinfulness. It's unfortunate that only the visible sins get treated in this way - it is a sad reality that many within the church will turn a blind eye to men cheating on their wives, to people engaging in little more than serial monogamy, and yet treat homosexuals as if they were the devil incarnate. This does nothing to show Christ's love to the world and often does little more than allow those of us who struggle with other forms of sin to pat ourselves on the back and figure that whatever we might have done, at least we haven't done that (with suitably disapproving facial expressions and tones of voice).

      If we are engaged in some form of sin we should repent before taking communion and, since repentance is so much more than saying sorry before going right back to it, it's not difficult to see why a bishop might consider it inappropriate to serve communion to a man who has obviously been engaged in a habitual sin and presumably shows no signs of repenting of it. Whatever you or I might think of the sinfulness or otherwise of homosexual acts, we're not the ones making the decision.

      It's also worth looking past the idea that loving people necessarily involves approving and endorsing whatever lifestyle choices they may make. It's quite popular to equate love with unconditional acceptance but it isn't loving to fail to warn someone of the consequences of their decision. For example, if you're looking at a map while walking towards a cliff edge there is no love involved in failing to shout to warn you based on the assumption you know what you're doing and, besides, it's not for me to tell you how to live you life. Of course there's a huge decision between different ways of raising topics like that but ultimately only the bishop can decide how he approaches things.

      One other thing to note is the way society seems to regard Christianity in particular. It often seems like just about any other religion is allowed to believe whatever it wants and people merely shrug and accept that some people believe differently. But as soon as a Christian takes a stand for what they believe in they are accused of being hateful.
      "Do what thou will shall be the whole of the law" - Aleister Crowley

      "If you love me, obey my commandments" - Jesus Christ

      The Bible comes as a complete package. If we want to pluck verses out of context so make them mean what we want them to mean, if we want to ignore the passages that are inconvenient to our outlook, we should be intellectually honest enough to throw our Bibles in the trash and admit we are following Crowley and not Christ.

    8. Likes Tigger liked this post
    9. #6
      hedrick is offline Apprentice Member
      69
      Single
      Mood:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2015
      Posts
      201
      CH Cash
      2,388
      CH Challenge
      3
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      1,716
      Level
      13
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      88.78%
      Rep Power
      53
      Quote Originally Posted by tango View Post
      One other thing to note is the way society seems to regard Christianity in particular. It often seems like just about any other religion is allowed to believe whatever it wants and people merely shrug and accept that some people believe differently. But as soon as a Christian takes a stand for what they believe in they are accused of being hateful.
      We're a Christian culture, even our atheists. They don't expect members of other religions to follow Jesus' standards. They do expect it from Christians.

      The point isn't our theological opinions. The NT shows evidence of vigorous disagreements. The point is how we treat each other.
      Last edited by hedrick; 06-24-2017 at 06:49 PM.

    10. #7
      Lämmchen's Avatar
      Lämmchen is offline God's Lil Lamb
      Administrator
      Supporting Member
      Community Team
      Married
      Gloria In Excelsis Deo
       
      Mood:
      Cool
       
      Join Date
      Jun 2015
      Posts
      15,688
      Country
      United States
      CH Cash
      198,732
      CH Challenge
      83
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (142,214 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      191,623
      Level
      91
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      75.54%
      Rep Power
      799
      Quote Originally Posted by hedrick View Post
      We're a Christian culture, even our atheists. They don't expect members of other religions to follow Jesus' standards. They do expect it from Christians.

      The point isn't our theological opinions. The NT shows evidence of vigorous disagreements. The point is how we treat each other.

      If it wasn't homosexuality that was the topic but some other sin (I'm aware you don't consider it sin but the priest does in the article) would you still insist that the person didn't need to repent to receive Holy Communion, last rite or a Catholic burial?
      "Christianity does not require more work but more trust." Pr. Jonathan Fisk
      "Bearing fruit does not make you a branch. A branch is a branch because it grows from the vine." Pr. Jonathan Fisk
      "A Christian's life is not defined by what the Christian does. It is defined by Christ and what He has done for us." Pr. Rolf David Preus

    11. #8
      tango's Avatar
      tango is offline Bronze Member
      Valued Contributor
      Supporting Member
      Married
      ... and you shall live ...
       
      Mood:
      Bemused
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2015
      Location
      Elsewhere
      Posts
      6,236
      CH Cash
      2,715
      CH Challenge
      32
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (4,663,346 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      28,366
      Level
      45
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      83.49%
      Rep Power
      707
      Quote Originally Posted by hedrick View Post
      We're a Christian culture, even our atheists. They don't expect members of other religions to follow Jesus' standards. They do expect it from Christians.
      It's easy to say "we're a Christian culture" but that doesn't actually mean a whole lot. Jesus was far more tolerant of the lost than many within the church (which is a shame, given what he told us to do) and very intolerant of sinfulness within those who claimed to be Godly (most specifically the Pharisees).

      The point isn't our theological opinions. The NT shows evidence of vigorous disagreements. The point is how we treat each other.
      You're right that how we treat each other is important but that doesn't mean people can simply expect us to do whatever they want. If the bishop considers the couple to have lived a life of overt sinfulness and the surviving spouse shows no inclination to repent, on what basis should the bishop offer communion?
      "Do what thou will shall be the whole of the law" - Aleister Crowley

      "If you love me, obey my commandments" - Jesus Christ

      The Bible comes as a complete package. If we want to pluck verses out of context so make them mean what we want them to mean, if we want to ignore the passages that are inconvenient to our outlook, we should be intellectually honest enough to throw our Bibles in the trash and admit we are following Crowley and not Christ.

    12. #9
      hedrick is offline Apprentice Member
      69
      Single
      Mood:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2015
      Posts
      201
      CH Cash
      2,388
      CH Challenge
      3
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      1,716
      Level
      13
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      88.78%
      Rep Power
      53
      Quote Originally Posted by Lämmchen View Post
      If it wasn't homosexuality that was the topic but some other sin (I'm aware you don't consider it sin but the priest does in the article) would you still insist that the person didn't need to repent to receive Holy Communion, last rite or a Catholic burial?
      There are people who have besetting sins that will probably be with them for their whole lives. There are people who don't recognize something as sin. Generally we don't turn sinners away from communion because we're aware that that wouldn't leave anyone there. We certainly don't refuse to hold a funeral for them, because at that point they are subject to God's judgement, not ours.

      But there's another issue. Generally people who get excluded from communion (and not just by Catholics) are those who have committed what I'd call sins against purity, normally sexual. It was the Pharisees who considered purity the key thing that God wanted, and whose claim to fame was a code to maintain purity. Jesus spoke a lot about judgement. But none of his examples of judgement involved that kind of offense. The top two causes were failing to bear any fruit, and rejecting Jesus or his Gospel. He condemned the Pharisees for turning people who couldn't obey their code away from God.

    13. #10
      hedrick is offline Apprentice Member
      69
      Single
      Mood:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2015
      Posts
      201
      CH Cash
      2,388
      CH Challenge
      3
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      1,716
      Level
      13
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      88.78%
      Rep Power
      53
      Quote Originally Posted by tango View Post
      It's easy to say "we're a Christian culture" but that doesn't actually mean a whole lot.
      It explains why people are harsher in judging Christians for failing to love each other than in judging others.

    Bookmarks

    Posting Permissions

    • You may not post new threads
    • You may not post replies
    • You may not post attachments
    • You may not edit your posts
    •