Is talking someone into committing suicide murder?

Lamb

God's Lil Lamb
Community Team
Administrator
Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2015
Messages
31,566
Age
57
Gender
Female
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes

psalms 91

Well-known member
Moderator
Valued Contributor
Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 22, 2015
Messages
15,205
Age
75
Location
Pa
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Charismatic
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
No it shouldnt it was stioll his choice
 

user1234

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 2, 2017
Messages
1,654
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Other Church
Marital Status
Separated
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Interesting question.
Jesus said if you have hatred in your heart for another, you've committed murder already. So there are differences I guess, because we don't put a person on trial and in jail for being hateful, (although there are some places that have stiffer penalties if a crime is committed with hatred as the motivator, but that's another questionable topic), but I'm thinking about the first sin in the garden, the devil tempted man, instigating the fall, which in a sense was like murder/suicide of the worst degree.

Then there's the whole subject of Jesus' crucifixion, so this can get pretty heavy.
But I gtg for now, will get back later I hope. Interesting question, though. :)
 

Josiah

simul justus et peccator
Valued Contributor
Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 12, 2015
Messages
13,647
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
On the one hand, it is impossible to FORCE another to feel anything. One could take one's harm and physically force it to plunge a knife into one's chest, but in that case, the person is causing the action. We take responsibility for our OWN feelings and resulting action.

On the other hand, the girl IS responsible for what she said AND for the thoughts that were behind them. And as was pointed out, "murder" is not limited to the actual act but begins in the heart. In THAT sense, perhaps she is guilty of murder.
 

Tigger

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 20, 2015
Messages
1,555
Age
63
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
I think we have to differentiate between judging whether something constitutes being murder under governmental statutes and biblical NT statues.

On one hand I believe under U.S. law if someone were to intentionally scream "FIRE" knowing full well there wasn't in fact a fire in a crowded auditorium and people got injured or possibly killed due to being crushed by the panicking crowd trying to evacuate the building, I don't believe they would be convicted of murder but probably a leaser charge like man slaughter or something.

And as others have posted God's law judges the intent of the heart where even hatered is counted as murder and would need to be forgiven as such.
 
Last edited:

user1234

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 2, 2017
Messages
1,654
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Other Church
Marital Status
Separated
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
I think we have to differentiate between judging whether something constitutes being murder under governmental statutes and biblical NT statues.

On one hand I believe under U.S. law if someone were to intentionally scream "FIRE" knowing full well there wasn't in fact a fire in a crowded auditorium and people got injured or possibly killed due to being crushed by the panicking crowd trying to evacuate the building, I don't believe they would be convicted of murder but probably a leaser charge like man slaughter or something.

And as others have posted God's law judges the intent of the heart where even hatered is counted as murder and would need to be forgiven as such.
Well thought out, Tigger . I wonder too, if it could be proven that the person was so coerced as to be considered 'brainwashed' and manipulated to committing suicide OR murder, where the line (or lines) of responsibility fall.
Of course, there were cultists over the years, JimJones, CharlesManson, etc., where ppl did things seemingly under the influence of another person.
Then there are accounts of ppl being 'possessed' by demons, ... Think of at least one in the bible that was so badly under the influence he would easily break the bindings ppl would put on him, he would cut himself, (and think of the ppl who still do that today, many teenagers, sadly) and he would scream and hurl insults, etc., ..... Of course, ppl must have either hated or greatly feared this guy, yet Our Lord Jesus had compassion and ministered to him and set him free from that demonic influence.
I wonder how many ppl have gone beyond cutting themselves, to actually committing suicide, because of demonic coersion or possession.
But more to the point of the OP, suppose the person that coerced another to commit suicide was under demonic influence themself?
Gosh, I better quit now, it just gets muddier, and I don't know how much of these kind of things can be proven/disproved in a court of law.
 

~Jo~

The Cakeslayer
Joined
Jul 14, 2015
Messages
1,491
Location
Here and There in London uk
Gender
Female
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Liberal
Marital Status
Widow/Widower
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
No
I read about this case, my opinion is what kind of person tries to encourage someone to taking there own life, what possible reason could she have had to do that, I feel sorry for the guy that did it, he was suffering from depression without a lot of help from everyone. I think she needs to see a psychiatrist to get herself sorted out .. she was supposed to be his girlfriend I think, tragically she got him to do it even told him his parents would understand .. If I was his parents I don't think I would have understood how she lead him to doing it..Yes he didn't have to do it but when your that depressed your not even thinking whats right or wrong and she should have got him help but failed miserable... she should go to prison I think for encouraging him to it...
 

user1234

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 2, 2017
Messages
1,654
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Other Church
Marital Status
Separated
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Hard to argue with post #7^ . ( And Hi ~Jo~ :) )
 

Tigger

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 20, 2015
Messages
1,555
Age
63
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Well thought out, Tigger . I wonder too, if it could be proven that the person was so coerced as to be considered 'brainwashed' and manipulated to committing suicide OR murder, where the line (or lines) of responsibility fall.
Of course, there were cultists over the years, JimJones, CharlesManson, etc., where ppl did things seemingly under the influence of another person.
Then there are accounts of ppl being 'possessed' by demons, ... Think of at least one in the bible that was so badly under the influence he would easily break the bindings ppl would put on him, he would cut himself, (and think of the ppl who still do that today, many teenagers, sadly) and he would scream and hurl insults, etc., ..... Of course, ppl must have either hated or greatly feared this guy, yet Our Lord Jesus had compassion and ministered to him and set him free from that demonic influence.
I wonder how many ppl have gone beyond cutting themselves, to actually committing suicide, because of demonic coersion or possession.
But more to the point of the OP, suppose the person that coerced another to commit suicide was under demonic influence themself?
Gosh, I better quit now, it just gets muddier, and I don't know how much of these kind of things can be proven/disproved in a court of law.

Yes from what I can tell we are in agreement. The older I get the more I see our nature as not only sinful but wounded. But I do feel we are accountable for our choices. Let's say my fallen nature causes me to be lustful. I can fight against it with prayer and wholesome thinking or I can give into my lust only to increase my appetite for it. We'll keep wanting more and more until we become throughly perverse. The Bible refers to this as a searing of the conscience as if with a branding iron. The only recourse for this situation (which we all are in by the way, only at different stages) is the Holy Spirit.

Now then governmentally speaking it can only act pragmatically diciphering between criminal intent or a psychological disorder.
 

user1234

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 2, 2017
Messages
1,654
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Other Church
Marital Status
Separated
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Yes from what I can tell we are in agreement. The older I get the more I see our nature as not only sinful but wounded. But I do feel we are accountable for our choices. Let's say my fallen nature causes me to be lustful. I can fight against it with prayer and wholesome thinking or I can give into my lust only to increase my appetite for it. We'll keep wanting more and more until we become throughly perverse. The Bible refers to this as a searing of the conscience as if with a branding iron. The only recourse for this situation (which we all are in by the way, only at different stages) is the Holy Spirit.

Now then governmentally speaking it can only act pragmatically diciphering between criminal intent or a psychological disorder.
Yep yep and amen!
Excellent post.
 

Lamb

God's Lil Lamb
Community Team
Administrator
Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2015
Messages
31,566
Age
57
Gender
Female
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
I read a few news sites to get more info. Apparently the young man had attempted suicide once before and was still depressed. His girlfriend was aware of that. I think that even though she behaved irresponsibly that there is a good chance that the man might have committed suicide at another point anyway. He trusted the wrong person to help him and who knows if he would have trusted anyone else to help him.
 

Stravinsk

Composer and Artist on Flat Earth
Joined
Jan 4, 2016
Messages
4,485
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Deist
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Widow/Widower
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...is-on-trial-this-week/?utm_term=.f51509df544c

A teenager had talked her boyfriend into committing suicide and now Massachusetts is trying to decide if that falls into the realm of murder. What do you think?

Not murder. Ill intent not established. Desire by victim to live not established.

For there to be a murder, there must be an intent to end life by the murderer, with malice aforethought, and an intent to continue life by the victim.

Unless the victim (of suicide in this case) is under certain mind altering substances that have been established to make them slaves to another's will, or so highly susceptible to suggestion in an induced state that their will is greatly diminished - then absolutely not - whatever thoughts she spoke to him - he chose to listen. He made a choice to agree with them. He made the choice to end his life.

Is she completely blameless? I don't think so - but unless certain things are established she is not by default a murderer.
 

Lamb

God's Lil Lamb
Community Team
Administrator
Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2015
Messages
31,566
Age
57
Gender
Female
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Today she was found guilty of manslaughter...the judge said sentencing is not appropriate today. I'm not sure when there will be a sentence given to her.
 

Tigger

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 20, 2015
Messages
1,555
Age
63
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Today she was found guilty of manslaughter...the judge said sentencing is not appropriate today. I'm not sure when there will be a sentence given to her.
FOUND GUILTY: Michelle Carter, the Massachusetts woman accused of encouraging her boyfriend to commit suicide through text messages, was found guilty of involuntary manslaughter on Friday. http://fxn.ws/2sGYFo7
 

psalms 91

Well-known member
Moderator
Valued Contributor
Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 22, 2015
Messages
15,205
Age
75
Location
Pa
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Charismatic
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Wow, I guess we are no longer responsible for our actions and choices, someone else is
 

Lamb

God's Lil Lamb
Community Team
Administrator
Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2015
Messages
31,566
Age
57
Gender
Female
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
I'm not sure how I feel about this verdict. If I were her I'd appeal though!
 

NewCreation435

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
4,914
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Today she was found guilty of manslaughter...the judge said sentencing is not appropriate today. I'm not sure when there will be a sentence given to her.

sentencing is August 3rd
 

NewCreation435

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
4,914
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
I'm not sure how I feel about this verdict. If I were her I'd appeal though!

I haven't followed it closely, but I think she deserves the verdict she got. She could have stopped him and not encouraged it or at least called his parents or the police and intervened and didn't.
 

Josiah

simul justus et peccator
Valued Contributor
Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 12, 2015
Messages
13,647
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
I only heard yesterday specifically what she did......

While I would not say she specifically murdered him (so i'm not sure a "murder" charge is in order), I think she does deserve considerable jail time - what she did was horrific.
 

psalms 91

Well-known member
Moderator
Valued Contributor
Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 22, 2015
Messages
15,205
Age
75
Location
Pa
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Charismatic
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
I only heard yesterday specifically what she did......

While I would not say she specifically murdered him (so i'm not sure a "murder" charge is in order), I think she does deserve considerable jail time - what she did was horrific.
How about those who are predjudiced or those who sprew all kinds of untrue garbage? Should they all be locked up as well? There is a big difference between offensive and not right and being criminal
 
Top Bottom