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    1. #91
      psalms 91's Avatar
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      Lets start simple. God wills that all men be saved, seems to me that if there is only the elect then Gods will would not be that. Why is there elect mentioned in the bible? Could it be because God has foreknowledge of the choices we will make and therefore knows who will come to salvation and who wont? Just a simple matter to start with will leave the heavy theological discussions to the experts
      Isaiah 40:31

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    3. #92
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      Quote Originally Posted by psalms 91 View Post
      Lets start simple. God wills that all men be saved, seems to me that if there is only the elect then Gods will would not be that. Why is there elect mentioned in the bible? Could it be because God has foreknowledge of the choices we will make and therefore knows who will come to salvation and who wont? Just a simple matter to start with will leave the heavy theological discussions to the experts
      This is solidly Biblical via Paul's Epistle to the Romans, because he begins "election" with God's Foreknowledge of persons... So God knows before we do what we will do, and He knows this in the face of the fact that in this fallen condition of mankind we have self-authority that is God-authored but not God-enacted... And the Bible does not hesitate to show us God's perspective, because He is a-temporal... He sees beginnings from the end, and outcomes from the beginnings... He knows the future in minute detail, and yes, even the actions we will take that He does not control and direct... Knowing what a person will do, he makes provision, and if we think, nay if we know for a fact exactly what we will do when something happens, and we see God's provision for our doing that, and then we change our minds, proving ourselves wrong, and then see the Providence of God "shift" to our newly decided actions, we then say that "God repented" of His previous "decision", when indeed, as you say, He knew it all along... Calling it "repentance" is a condescension for our sake, because that is how we who are living here in this fallen shadow of death NEED to understand it...

      In this the Calvinists do not err, yet for the sake of the Fall of Adam, God delegated self-authority to man born under the rulership of death, self-authority to turn to God, and to turn to evil, and with this freedom to self-decide, our decisions decide our eternal life that we will all have in the general resurrection from the dead at the dread Last Judgement...

      God has total foreknowledge...
      Man has God-given self-authority...

      Libertarian Free Will is not relevant to this understanding...

      Arsenios
      Last edited by Arsenios; 06-28-2018 at 07:59 AM.

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    5. #93
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      ================================================== ============================================

      In Post #90, Arsenios stated:
      Pedrito - I know I am not MC, but it occurred to me to do a simple Bible word search to see what might show up related to your request for 24 passages, which seemed to me tedious when I first read it... So I will give you 3, and you can figure out what term I searched... I found one thousand five hundred ninety five hits... And drooling my way through all of them would be REALLY tedious!!
      He then gave Genesis 4:7, Exodus 19:5, and Psalm 132:12 as examples.

      ================================================== ============================================

      Without any hint of rancour, I would like to point out that:
      - Arsenios’ search term identified one thousand five hundred ninety five hits;
      - And the likelihood of there being 1,595 verses in the NT regarding personal choice to follow Christ, is slim;
      - And that therefore that search term used seems somewhat inadequate for the task.

      Besides, the three scripture extracts he presented, significantly enlightening though they actually were, did not relate to the specific focus of choosing to follow Christ.

      ================================================== ============================================

      I believe we should welcome third parties if they wish to help provide information on behalf of others. (Provided that the individuals being aided don’t object). I would counsel however, that Scripture references so tendered should be directly to the point.

      I offer that counsel, because it is common in Christian circles for peripheral and out of context scripture references to be offered in support of cherished beliefs. And my tolerance for that practice has been diminishing over time. I would hate it if my tolerance limit were to be exceeded and I became uncharacteristically scathing (“you ain’t seen nothin’ yet”) in response – but such responses, if triggered, would always be based on logic, not on the emotional flaming of individuals or organisations.)


      ================================================== ============================================
      Seeking to understand with precision, God's holy and coherent revelation to us.

    6. #94
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      Quote Originally Posted by Pedrito View Post
      ================================================== ============================================

      In Post #90, Arsenios stated:


      He then gave Genesis 4:7, Exodus 19:5, and Psalm 132:12 as examples.

      ================================================== ============================================

      Without any hint of rancour, I would like to point out that:
      - Arsenios’ search term identified one thousand five hundred ninety five hits;
      - And the likelihood of there being 1,595 verses in the NT regarding personal choice to follow Christ, is slim;
      - And that therefore that search term used seems somewhat inadequate for the task.

      Besides, the three scripture extracts he presented, significantly enlightening though they actually were, did not relate to the specific focus of choosing to follow Christ.

      ================================================== ============================================

      I believe we should welcome third parties if they wish to help provide information on behalf of others. (Provided that the individuals being aided don’t object). I would counsel however, that Scripture references so tendered should be directly to the point.

      I offer that counsel, because it is common in Christian circles for peripheral and out of context scripture references to be offered in support of cherished beliefs. And my tolerance for that practice has been diminishing over time. I would hate it if my tolerance limit were to be exceeded and I became uncharacteristically scathing (“you ain’t seen nothin’ yet”) in response – but such responses, if triggered, would always be based on logic, not on the emotional flaming of individuals or organisations.)


      ================================================== ============================================
      The search term was one of the biggest words in the Greek Language...
      Not all the vss addressed your narrow issue...
      But those three did...

      The search term is "ean" or "ei"...

      It simply means IF EVER or IF...

      Related to keeping the Covenant, these three signify a personal choice on the part of each person to follow the pre-incarnate Christ... Had I made it to the NT, we could have found more I should think... I will look there if you would like me to...

      Do I need to go find my asbestos suit??

      Arsenios

    7. #95
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      ================================================== ============================================

      In Post #94, Arsenios asked:
      Do I need to go find my asbestos suit??
      Indeed not. My general comments were not addressed at or to Arsenios. As pointed out, his comments were significantly enlightening on the subject. They established a general, Scripture-wide principle.

      However, some people will be tempted to invoke the “Old Testament versus New Testament” ploy, to try to discredit that established, Scripture-wide principle. (They may back off if this is posted first, but that is why importance was placed on the narrow focus of choosing to follow Christ.)

      My general comments in Post #93 pertained to the widespread misuse of Scripture in support of Post-Nicene and therefore Post-Apostolic doctrines – misuse by the imposition of retrofitted meanings, misuse by the quoting of verses out of context, misuse by the ignoring of inconvenient passages, and misuse by the making of unsubstantiated (and unsubstantiatable) claims about the existence of supporting Scripture (especially mass existence).

      That gets my proverbial goat. (I don’t own a real one.)

      ================================================== ============================================

      Not all the vss addressed your narrow issue...
      But those three did...
      Their value was acknowledged in Post #93.

      Related to keeping the Covenant, these three signify a personal choice on the part of each person to follow the pre-incarnate Christ... Had I made it to the NT, we could have found more I should think... I will look there if you would like me to...
      It’s really up to Arsenios plus anyone else who might like to chip in on MoreCoffee’s behalf (with MoreCoffees’ acquiescence, of course; MoreCoffee made the “hundreds” claim originally). “The more the merrier” could be appropriate in this case.


      ================================================== ============================================
      Seeking to understand with precision, God's holy and coherent revelation to us.

    8. #96
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      Quote Originally Posted by Pedrito View Post
      ================================================== ============================================

      In Post #94, Arsenios asked:


      Indeed not. My general comments were not addressed at or to Arsenios. As pointed out, his comments were significantly enlightening on the subject. They established a general, Scripture-wide principle.

      However, some people will be tempted to invoke the “Old Testament versus New Testament” ploy, to try to discredit that established, Scripture-wide principle. (They may back off if this is posted first, but that is why importance was placed on the narrow focus of choosing to follow Christ.)

      My general comments in Post #93 pertained to the widespread misuse of Scripture in support of Post-Nicene and therefore Post-Apostolic doctrines – misuse by the imposition of retrofitted meanings, misuse by the quoting of verses out of context, misuse by the ignoring of inconvenient passages, and misuse by the making of unsubstantiated (and unsubstantiatable) claims about the existence of supporting Scripture (especially mass existence).

      That gets my proverbial goat. (I don’t own a real one.)

      ================================================== ============================================



      Their value was acknowledged in Post #93.



      It’s really up to Arsenios plus anyone else who might like to chip in on MoreCoffee’s behalf (with MoreCoffees’ acquiescence, of course; MoreCoffee made the “hundreds” claim originally). “The more the merrier” could be appropriate in this case.


      ================================================== ============================================
      What a gracious post, you scruffy Old Goat lover!

      Just for that, ya gotta now BEG me to be MEAN to you!

      Take THAT and SUFFER!!!

      Arsenios - The Goats-bearder!

    9. #97
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      Quote Originally Posted by Rens View Post
      Lazarus still had to come forth and move his legs. No he didn't work that himself, but he did it.
      Faith comes by hearing.
      Ears first.

      What power the Lord's Word is in Life giving Grace.
      That even the dead hear.

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    11. #98
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      ================================================== ============================================

      In Post #85, MoreCoffee stated that there were “hundreds of passage in the holy scriptures” in which it is evident that “choosing to follow Christ is open as an option just as choosing not to follow Christ is an option open to people”.

      In Post #88, for sake of consistency on my part, I requested that he supply at least two dozen of those claimed hundreds, in line with my former requests to other specific Posters for lists of verses that they claimed existaed.

      In reply to that, Mennosota in Post #89 said:
      Here's my summary of Mr Equals Sign :
      MC provides the "equal" number of verses for humans choosing both God and rejection of God that other posters have shared regarding God choosing humans and keeping humans unto himself.
      Is that an accurate summary?
      While that’s not quite what I had in mind, it is a good and fair idea. I would propose “equal” + 1, however.

      Following that line of thought, I have two suggestions.

      ================================================== ============================================

      Firstly, I suggest that the scattered verses referred to in Post #89 be consolidated into a single Post in this thread. That will achieve the following:
      - Readers will be able to directly compare those verses with the ones to be supplied by MoreCoffee;
      - There will be an identifiable and inarguable target figure that MoreCoffee has to match;
      - Readers and MoreCoffee will know exactly what verses MennoSota was referring to.


      ================================================== ============================================


      Continued...
      Seeking to understand with precision, God's holy and coherent revelation to us.

    12. #99
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      ================================================== ============================================

      In Post #89, Mennosota suggested:
      MC provides the "equal" number of verses for humans choosing both God and rejection of God that other posters have shared regarding God choosing humans and keeping humans unto himself.
      Is that an accurate summary?
      I thought that was a good idea, and suggested that the scattered verses referred to in Post #89 be consolidated into a single Post in this thread, and that that would achieve the following:
      - Readers will be able to directly compare those verses with the ones to be supplied by MoreCoffee;
      - There will be an identifiable and inarguable target figure that MoreCoffee has to match;
      - Readers and MoreCoffee will know exactly what verses MennoSota was referring to.

      Nothing has come of that yet.

      ================================================== ============================================

      I understand that rummaging through Post after Post (especially if encompassing a number of threads) can be burdensome. (I have done it myself once or twice.) So I have another thought. The “other posters” can come to Mennosota’s aid.

      I suggest that the “other posters” referred to by MennoSota (other than himself), PM MennoSota personally, and supply the verse references they have tendered over time, together with the Post Number and Thread Title in which each set of those references was posted.

      After a week or two, MennoSota can consolidate the information (list the details) from each of the PM’s he has received (plus his own past contributions), into the requested single Post that would be so helpful.

      Who would like to help him?


      ================================================== ============================================
      Seeking to understand with precision, God's holy and coherent revelation to us.

    13. #100
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      Quote Originally Posted by Pedrito View Post
      Who would like to help him [Menno]?
      I should think that he would ask for such help himself...

      Absent such a request, such "help" would be presumptuous, would it not?

      Arsenios

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