• Amused
  • Angry
  • Annoyed
  • Awesome
  • Bemused
  • Cool
  • Crazy
  • Crying
  • Depressed
  • Down
  • Embarrassed
  • Enraged
  • Friendly
  • Geeky
  • Grumpy
  • Happy
  • Hungry
  • Innocent
  • Meh
  • Piratey
  • Poorly
  • Sad
  • Secret
  • Shy
  • Sneaky
  • Tired
  • Page 1 of 10 123 ... LastLast
    Results 1 to 10 of 100
    1. #1
      Josiah's Avatar
      Josiah is offline Bronze Member
      Supporting Member
      Married
      Mood:
      Happy
       
      Join Date
      Jun 2015
      Posts
      6,104
      Country
      United States
      CH Cash
      117,649
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      62,094
      Level
      62
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      0.43%
      Rep Power
      860

      Smile Discussion of a Foundational "Evangelical" Teaching

      .

      An argument that is frequently heard by "Arminianists" and some modern "Evangelicals" is that while God OFFERS and CALLS us to salvation, we MUST decide and choose and embrace it.

      The usual "LOGICAL" argument is that in a few cases, Scripture CALLS the dead to faith.... and thus the dead MUST be able to respond to that call or it makes no sense for them to be called to it. IMO, this makes no sense logically (and it is purely an argument supposedly from human logic - they admit NO Scripture remotely says this) and it's not Scriptural.



      Consider, for example, this Scripture known to all of us.... Let's look at this example: John 11:38-44


      38 Then Jesus, deeply moved again, came to the tomb. It was a cave, and a stone lay against it.

      39 Jesus said, “Take away the stone.” Martha, the sister of the dead man, said to him, “Lord, by this time there will be an odor, for he has been dead four days.”

      40 Jesus said to her, “Did I not tell you that if you believed you would see the glory of God?”

      41 So they took away the stone. And Jesus lifted up his eyes and said, “Father, I thank you that you have heard me.

      42 I knew that you always hear me, but I said this on account of the people standing around, that they may believe that you sent me.”

      43 When he had said these things, he cried out with a loud voice, “Lazarus, come out.”

      44 The man who had died came out, his hands and feet bound with linen strips, and his face wrapped with a cloth. Jesus said to them, “Unbind him, and let him go.”




      Now, let's unpack the verbatim words here.....


      1. Lazarus was DEAD. Just as Scripture says all those without faith are dead. Lazarus (like the unregenerate) was deader than a doorknob. He "stunk" like unregenerate people, lol.

      2. In verse 43, Jesus CALLS him, CALLS this dead man to come out of the tomb. There is a clear, obvious, undenial CALL here. Lazarus was commanded to do something.

      3. The premise is that if one is CALLED to something, that one THEREFORE must be able to RESPOND to the call. But did dead Lazarus give himself life? Did he raise himself from the dead? Is it a case that dead Lazarus - being able to hear God, desiring to please God, considering Jesus His Lord - was obedient and did as Jesus told him to do? Thus, there's no divine miracle here.... no grace here.... nothing is GIVEN..... rather, dead Lazarus was able to do what he was called on to do, Lazarus had life because he had free choice to create it, he was obedient, he made the right choice and gave himself life? OR did Jesus perform a pure miracle here (one our human brains can't explain, one our human logic and philosophy and science can't explain), Jesus GAVE this dead man life, pure grace?


      IMO, this argument that we read here at CH.... that I read so much in Christian books and on Christian websites and hear on Christian radio... that BECAUSE the dead are CALLED to faith, ERGO they must be able to respond to it, to do it..... these dead ones must be able to cause themselves to believe, to come to life, to have faith..... IMO, the whole popular premise is illogical and unbiblical. Sometimes, God gives. There is God's GRACE (His unmerited, unearned, free gift). I believe Lazarus (while called) nonetheless passively received a miracle of grace, purely an act of Jesus. I don't deny that there are a few verses where the dead/unregenerate are called to faith (not to be confused with CHRISTIANS being called to greater or more focused faith). What I deny as both illogical and unbiblical is that THEREFORE it is MANDATED that the one called MUST be able to do what he is called to do (even if empowered by God). I believe there is a dynamic at work here: GRACE. God's unmerited, unearned, free GIFT. Sometimes God GIVES us what we need. Gives. Because He unconditionally loves us. Because we need it - or just He wishes to bless us with it.


      Agree? Disagree?



      Soli Deo Gloria



      - Josiah
      We are justified by works - just not our own.

    2. Likes Lämmchen liked this post
    3. #2
      Rens's Avatar
      Rens is offline Expert Member
      48
      In Relationship
      Mood:
      Happy
       
      Join Date
      Sep 2015
      Posts
      4,754
      Country
      Netherlands
      CH Cash
      20,366
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      18,076
      Level
      38
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      18.79%
      Rep Power
      373
      Lazarus still had to come forth and move his legs. No he didn't work that himself, but he did it.

    4. Likes Lämmchen liked this post
    5. #3
      Tigger's Avatar
      Tigger is offline Veteran Member
      57
      Married
      Mood:
      Piratey
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2015
      Posts
      1,178
      CH Cash
      56,880
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      10,782
      Level
      30
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      78.9%
      Rep Power
      349
      Quote Originally Posted by Rens View Post
      Lazarus still had to come forth and move his legs. No he didn't work that himself, but he did it.
      Yes but Lazarus was initially brought back to life/saved from death purely from the grace of God and then Lazarus was able to respond by coming out of the tomb but that's after the grace of life was given. I think all we are debating the 'order of salvation'.

    6. Likes Rens, Josiah, Lämmchen liked this post
    7. #4
      Josiah's Avatar
      Josiah is offline Bronze Member
      Supporting Member
      Married
      Mood:
      Happy
       
      Join Date
      Jun 2015
      Posts
      6,104
      Country
      United States
      CH Cash
      117,649
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      62,094
      Level
      62
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      0.43%
      Rep Power
      860
      Yes, once GIVEN life, once RISEN from death - purely, solely, exclusively, entirely by the GRACE of God and the MIRACLE working of Jesus - then, after that, because of that, as a result of that, Lazarus walked.

      But that throws a bucket of cold water on the idea that BECAUSE God called dead Lazarus to come, THEREFORE dead LAZARUS could do it. The premise that if God calls someone, ergo that one MUST have the ability to do it is both illogical and unbilbical. I think Jesus' gracious miracle of rising Lazarus from the dead (Lazarus being dead is passive) is just one example of the premise not being true... but that there is an entirely different reality here: God! Grace! GOD performing a miracle! The one called couldn't do it (cuz.... well.... he was DEAD) but God GIVES it to him. Wholly God. Purely grace.

      Agree? Disagree?


      - Josiah
      We are justified by works - just not our own.

    8. Likes Lämmchen liked this post
    9. #5
      Lämmchen's Avatar
      Lämmchen is online now God's Lil Lamb
      Administrator
      Supporting Member
      Community Team
      Married
      Gloria In Excelsis Deo
       
      Mood:
      Cool
       
      Join Date
      Jun 2015
      Posts
      15,041
      Country
      United States
      CH Cash
      195,880
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (114,763 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      183,997
      Level
      90
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      55.55%
      Rep Power
      782
      Ezekiel 37: 3-6

      “Son of man, can these bones live?”

      I said, “Sovereign Lord, you alone know.”

      Then he said to me, “Prophesy to these bones and say to them, ‘Dry bones, hear the word of the Lord! This is what the Sovereign Lord says to these bones: I will make breath enter you, and you will come to life. I will attach tendons to you and make flesh come upon you and cover you with skin; I will put breath in you, and you will come to life. Then you will know that I am the Lord.’”


      This verse also shows how it's all God's doing in bringing life.

      A response to life is just that, a response. It doesn't bring about life.
      "Christianity does not require more work but more trust." Pr. Jonathan Fisk
      "Bearing fruit does not make you a branch. A branch is a branch because it grows from the vine." Pr. Jonathan Fisk
      "A Christian's life is not defined by what the Christian does. It is defined by Christ and what He has done for us." Pr. Rolf David Preus

    10. Likes Rens, Josiah liked this post
    11. #6
      Lämmchen's Avatar
      Lämmchen is online now God's Lil Lamb
      Administrator
      Supporting Member
      Community Team
      Married
      Gloria In Excelsis Deo
       
      Mood:
      Cool
       
      Join Date
      Jun 2015
      Posts
      15,041
      Country
      United States
      CH Cash
      195,880
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (114,763 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      183,997
      Level
      90
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      55.55%
      Rep Power
      782
      Quote Originally Posted by Rens View Post
      Lazarus still had to come forth and move his legs. No he didn't work that himself, but he did it.
      That's proof of life but Lazarus played no part in his resurrection. His response did not add to what God did.
      "Christianity does not require more work but more trust." Pr. Jonathan Fisk
      "Bearing fruit does not make you a branch. A branch is a branch because it grows from the vine." Pr. Jonathan Fisk
      "A Christian's life is not defined by what the Christian does. It is defined by Christ and what He has done for us." Pr. Rolf David Preus

    12. Likes Rens, Josiah liked this post
    13. #7
      Josiah's Avatar
      Josiah is offline Bronze Member
      Supporting Member
      Married
      Mood:
      Happy
       
      Join Date
      Jun 2015
      Posts
      6,104
      Country
      United States
      CH Cash
      117,649
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      62,094
      Level
      62
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      0.43%
      Rep Power
      860
      Quote Originally Posted by Josiah View Post
      .

      An argument that is frequently heard by "Arminianists" and some modern "Evangelicals" is that while God OFFERS and CALLS us to salvation, we MUST decide and choose and embrace it.

      The usual "LOGICAL" argument is that in a few cases, Scripture CALLS the dead to faith.... and thus the dead MUST be able to respond to that call or it makes no sense for them to be called to it. IMO, this makes no sense logically (and it is purely an argument supposedly from human logic - they admit NO Scripture remotely says this) and it's not Scriptural.



      Consider, for example, this Scripture known to all of us.... Let's look at this example: John 11:38-44


      38 Then Jesus, deeply moved again, came to the tomb. It was a cave, and a stone lay against it.

      39 Jesus said, “Take away the stone.” Martha, the sister of the dead man, said to him, “Lord, by this time there will be an odor, for he has been dead four days.”

      40 Jesus said to her, “Did I not tell you that if you believed you would see the glory of God?”

      41 So they took away the stone. And Jesus lifted up his eyes and said, “Father, I thank you that you have heard me.

      42 I knew that you always hear me, but I said this on account of the people standing around, that they may believe that you sent me.”

      43 When he had said these things, he cried out with a loud voice, “Lazarus, come out.”

      44 The man who had died came out, his hands and feet bound with linen strips, and his face wrapped with a cloth. Jesus said to them, “Unbind him, and let him go.”




      Now, let's unpack the verbatim words here.....


      1. Lazarus was DEAD. Just as Scripture says all those without faith are dead. Lazarus (like the unregenerate) was deader than a doorknob. He "stunk" like unregenerate people, lol.

      2. In verse 43, Jesus CALLS him, CALLS this dead man to come out of the tomb. There is a clear, obvious, undenial CALL here. Lazarus was commanded to do something.

      3. The premise is that if one is CALLED to something, that one THEREFORE must be able to RESPOND to the call. But did dead Lazarus give himself life? Did he raise himself from the dead? Is it a case that dead Lazarus - being able to hear God, desiring to please God, considering Jesus His Lord - was obedient and did as Jesus told him to do? Thus, there's no divine miracle here.... no grace here.... nothing is GIVEN..... rather, dead Lazarus was able to do what he was called on to do, Lazarus had life because he had free choice to create it, he was obedient, he made the right choice and gave himself life? OR did Jesus perform a pure miracle here (one our human brains can't explain, one our human logic and philosophy and science can't explain), Jesus GAVE this dead man life, pure grace?


      IMO, this argument that we read here at CH.... that I read so much in Christian books and on Christian websites and hear on Christian radio... that BECAUSE the dead are CALLED to faith, ERGO they must be able to respond to it, to do it..... these dead ones must be able to cause themselves to believe, to come to life, to have faith..... IMO, the whole popular premise is illogical and unbiblical. Sometimes, God gives. There is God's GRACE (His unmerited, unearned, free gift). I believe Lazarus (while called) nonetheless passively received a miracle of grace, purely an act of Jesus. I don't deny that there are a few verses where the dead/unregenerate are called to faith (not to be confused with CHRISTIANS being called to greater or more focused faith). What I deny as both illogical and unbiblical is that THEREFORE it is MANDATED that the one called MUST be able to do what he is called to do (even if empowered by God). I believe there is a dynamic at work here: GRACE. God's unmerited, unearned, free GIFT. Sometimes God GIVES us what we need. Gives. Because He unconditionally loves us. Because we need it - or just He wishes to bless us with it.


      Agree? Disagree?



      Soli Deo Gloria



      - Josiah

      In another VERY active thread, some (including Lamm and myself) have been making this point: The dead don't cause self to become alive - JESUS does it, by grace, as His work, His miracle. But (somewhat to my surprise) that's been mocked, ridiculed, condemned.... I think we are on 19 pages of rebuttals of that position. Here, I posted the identical point and it seems better accepted. Hum.

      Well, this thread is meant to challenge a rebuttal stated in that other thread, as to why Lamm and Tigger and Turtlehare and myself are wrong: Since Jesus CALLS the dead to come to life, to faith - therefore they MUST be able to do it and if they have faith/life, obviously they did do it. This thread is meant to examine that (since NONE in that thread would).

      I plan to start a thread on another point we see in that thread (and a couple of others)... that the Greek word "Kai" ("and" in English) mandates chronological sequence, whatever comes before the word "kai" MUST come first in time and be a prerequisite to whatever word comes after the "kai." This is a premise to an apologetic we see all over CH (and in much Christian conversation). I have spent MUCH effort TRYING to help the promoters of that apologetic to reconsider that premise - on the basis of fundamental grammar, logic and Scripture - so far to no avail. I'll put up a thread for that soon, maybe it will get considered. And maybe not.


      I honestly think a BUNCH of stuff just gets repeated. In Christian conversation, in Christian contemporary songs, in Christian books and at Christian websites... and just becomes a sort of "Christiany" thing to say. But doesn't get examined. OFTEN (I believe) the one repeating this really doesn't BELIEVE that, they've just heard it so often, it sorta sounds Christiany, so they repeat it - but they've never examined it. If they do, they find out it's not really what they believe at all! And then sometimes, the proverb-like catch phrase IS true - but they are misapplying it (as I think is often when people hear something in the context of SANCTIFICATION but then wrongly apply it to JUSTIFICATION or when mixing what is true Law with what is true Gospel, it's not that the nice Christiany saying is false, they are just APPLYING it wrongly, in the wrong topic.



      Back to the discussion of this premise, SO often used.....




      - Josiah
      We are justified by works - just not our own.

    14. Likes Lämmchen liked this post
    15. #8
      Rens's Avatar
      Rens is offline Expert Member
      48
      In Relationship
      Mood:
      Happy
       
      Join Date
      Sep 2015
      Posts
      4,754
      Country
      Netherlands
      CH Cash
      20,366
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      18,076
      Level
      38
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      18.79%
      Rep Power
      373
      Arminius is always right cause he was Dutch.
      Lol I didn't even know who he was or what Arminianism was til a guy on cf explained it to me. That guy with those books who used to post here.

      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobus_Arminius
      Hermanszoon, son of Herman, such a pity they didn't use that name, then it'd be Hermanszonism.
      Last edited by Rens; 04-28-2017 at 04:05 PM.

    16. Likes Snerfle liked this post
    17. #9
      Rens's Avatar
      Rens is offline Expert Member
      48
      In Relationship
      Mood:
      Happy
       
      Join Date
      Sep 2015
      Posts
      4,754
      Country
      Netherlands
      CH Cash
      20,366
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      18,076
      Level
      38
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      18.79%
      Rep Power
      373
      Interesting stuff.

      Classical Arminianism, to which Arminius is the main contributor, and Wesleyan Arminianism, to which John Wesley is the main contributor, are the two main schools of thought. Wesleyan Arminianism is often identical with Methodism. Some schools of thought, notably Semipelagianism—which teaches that the first step of salvation is by human will,[6]—are confused as being Arminian in nature. But classical Arminianism holds that the first step of salvation is solely the grace of God.[7]

      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arminianism

    18. #10
      Snerfle is offline Veteran Member
      Supporting Member
      Mood:
      Geeky
       
      Join Date
      Feb 2017
      Location
      In a house
      Posts
      1,646
      Country
      United States
      CH Cash
      123,904
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      10,007
      Level
      29
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      83.32%
      Rep Power
      204
      Just wading my way through all the religionistic gobblety-goop of another 'it's-my-way-or-the-excommunication-highway' thread.

      Btw, which religious expert is now going to insist on telling us they know when Lazarus got saved/or was born-again/or became a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ/or joined some religious organization and got water-baptized and ate and drank Jesus' flesh and blood as denominational requirements to have his sins forgiven?
      ~Deliberate ignorance
      is anti-christian~

    Tags for this Thread

    Bookmarks

    Posting Permissions

    • You may not post new threads
    • You may not post replies
    • You may not post attachments
    • You may not edit your posts
    •