Five Reasons Why Babies Should be Baptized...

Cassia · May 27, 2017

Here's an interesting switchup in this mornings email but definately offtopic since the topic is only about the Practise of infant BAPTISM and not at all about the DEDICATION of parents to raise them in Christianity.

God's Salvation Being for the Whole Family

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Bible Verses~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Luke 19:9 And Jesus said to him, Today salvation has come
to this house...
Genesis 7:1 Then Jehovah said to Noah, Come into the ark,
you and all your household...
1 Peter 3:20 Who had formerly disobeyed when the long-
suffering of God waited in the days of Noah...a few, that
is, eight souls, were brought safely through by water.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Words of Ministry~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The Bible reveals the basic principle that God saves men
household by household. God's promise of salvation takes the
household as a unit, not the individual as a unit. If a
newly saved person sees this from the very beginning, he
will be spared many headaches, and he will gain much benefit
for himself. When God saves man, He takes the whole family,
rather than an individual, as a unit.

The ark was not for an individual; it was for the whole
house. In Genesis 6 we see a man who was righteous before
God--Noah. The Bible does not say that the sons and
daughters-in-law of Noah were righteous. The Bible only says
that Noah was a righteous man before God. However, when God
prepared a way of salvation for Noah, He commanded Noah's
whole house to enter the ark. Therefore, the household, not
an individual, entered the ark.

A new believer should bring every member of his household
into the ark. You can say to the Lord, "I have believed in
You. You have said that my whole household can enter into
the ark. Lord, please bring my whole household into the ark
now." God will honor your faith.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

MoreCoffee · May 27, 2017

I wonder if we ought to baptise ships?

:smirk:

Josiah · May 27, 2017

The following is from the LCMS website in "Frequently Asked Questions." Please note that while this is from a Lutheran perspective, this is not by any means a uniquely Lutheran view. Perhaps 100% of Christians for over 1500 years would hold to the same exact positions (until the Anabaptist movement invented the child prohibition) and is still the position of probably over 90% of Christians today; it is by no means uniquely or distinctively Lutheran.

QUESTION: Why do Lutherans baptize infants?

ANSWER: Lutherans baptize infants because of what the Bible teaches regarding:

1.) God's command to baptize (Matt. 28:18-20; Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38-39). There is not a single passage in Scripture which instructs us not to baptize for reasons of age, race, or gender.

On the contrary, the divine commands to baptize in Scripture are all universal in nature. On the basis of these commands, the Christian church has baptized infants from the earliest days of its history.

2.) Our need for Baptism (Psalm 51:5; John 3:5-7; Acts 2:38; Rom. 3:23; Rom. 6:3-4). According to the Bible, all people–including infants–are sinful and fall short of the glory of God (Rom. 3:23).

King David confesses, “I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me" (Ps. 51:5). Like adults, infants die–sure proof that they too are under the curse of sin and death.

According to the Bible, Baptism (somewhat like Old Testament circumcision, administered to 8-day-old-babies – see Col. 2:11-12) is God's gracious way of washing away our sins – even the sins of infants – without any help or cooperation on our part. It is a wonderful gift of a loving and gracious God.

3.) God's promises and power (Acts 2:38; Mark 16:16; Acts 22:16; 1 Peter 3:21; John 3:5-7; Titus 3:5-6; Gal. 3:26-27; Rom. 6:1-4; Col. 2;11-12; Eph. 5:25-26; 1 Cor. 12:13).

Those churches which deny Baptism to infants usually do so because they have a wrong understanding of Baptism. They see Baptism as something we do (e.g., a public profession of faith, etc.) rather than seeing it as something that God does for us and in us. None of the passages listed above, nor any passage in Scripture, describes Baptism as “our work” or as “our public confession of faith.” Instead, these passages describe Baptism as a gracious and powerful work of God through which He miraculously (though through very “ordinary” means) washes away our sins by applying to us the benefits of Christ's death and resurrection (Acts 2:38-39; Acts 22:16), gives us a new birth in which we “cooperate” just as little as we did in our first birth (John 3:5-7), clothes us in Christ's righteousness (Gal. 3:26-27), gives us the Holy Spirit (Titus 3:5-6), saves us (1 Peter 3:21), buries us and raises us up with Christ as new creatures (Rom. 6:4; Col. 2:11-12), makes us holy in God's sight (Eph. 5: 25-26) and incorporates us into the body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:13). All of this, according to the Bible, happens in Baptism, and all of it is God's doing, not ours. The promises and power of Baptism are extended to all in Scripture — including infants — and are available to all.

.

In terms of the practice, I'd stress # 1. While I agree with points 2 and 3, those have to do with the doctrine of baptism (another subject for another day and thread), point #1 applies in this thread.

IMO, in light of the universal nature of the commands to love, teach and baptize and in light of the absolutely universal practice of all Christians for over 1500 years, I think the 'burden of proof' lies with those who dogmatically insist on forbidding a certain group of people; it is for them to supply the divine prohibition "But do not baptize those under the age of X." In the same way, if one were to suddenly dogmatically insist that we are forbidden to love Blacks in spite of the Great Commandment to love as Christ first loved us, IMO the "burden of proof" would be on them to show why one group of humans (Blacks) is not only exempt from this but divinely forbidden.

Soli DEO Gloria

- Josiah

Lamb · May 27, 2017

Cassia said:
Here's an interesting switchup in this mornings email but definately offtopic since the topic is only about the Practise of infant BAPTISM and not at all about the DEDICATION of parents to raise them in Christianity.

God's Salvation Being for the Whole Family

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Bible Verses~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Luke 19:9 And Jesus said to him, Today salvation has come
to this house...
Genesis 7:1 Then Jehovah said to Noah, Come into the ark,
you and all your household...
1 Peter 3:20 Who had formerly disobeyed when the long-
suffering of God waited in the days of Noah...a few, that
is, eight souls, were brought safely through by water.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Words of Ministry~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The Bible reveals the basic principle that God saves men
household by household. God's promise of salvation takes the
household as a unit, not the individual as a unit. If a
newly saved person sees this from the very beginning, he
will be spared many headaches, and he will gain much benefit
for himself. When God saves man, He takes the whole family,
rather than an individual, as a unit.

The ark was not for an individual; it was for the whole
house. In Genesis 6 we see a man who was righteous before
God--Noah. The Bible does not say that the sons and
daughters-in-law of Noah were righteous. The Bible only says
that Noah was a righteous man before God. However, when God
prepared a way of salvation for Noah, He commanded Noah's
whole house to enter the ark. Therefore, the household, not
an individual, entered the ark.

A new believer should bring every member of his household
into the ark. You can say to the Lord, "I have believed in
You. You have said that my whole household can enter into
the ark. Lord, please bring my whole household into the ark
now." God will honor your faith.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I like how you make the point of saying that only Noah was declared as righteous. This actually proves more of the point for infant baptism than against when people insist that a baby must show that he can believe first before being baptized.

Noah's family was carried safely through the waters (as in baptism) by God.

Think also of Moses who was carried safely as a baby in the river water (another type of baptism).

Think also of Moses parting the Red Sea and the people walking through the waters (with their babies!) as a type of baptism.

The Hebrews and Jews were family oriented. Their children wouldn't be left out by God to be a part of the covenant. They trusted that God would somehow include them and so in Acts 2:39 they were TOLD that THIS PROMISE is for YOU and YOUR CHILDREN! They knew that baptism was for their babies because God had included them.

psalms 91 · May 27, 2017

Lamm, this actually makes biblical sense to me a lot more so than the pages of back and forth, thank you

Cassia · May 27, 2017

Well to me the whole question just flipped as to whether it's the old Jewish belief of a nation being saved or is Christianity for the individual?

Lamb · May 27, 2017

Cassia said:
Well to me the whole question just flipped as to whether it's the old Jewish belief of a nation being saved or is Christianity for the individual?

It's both.

God is the one who makes the covenant. He gives us the conditions, then He meets the conditions for us since we can't do that.

As a group He tells us that He will save us and we will be His bride. As individuals He gives us faith to trust that His will be done that He has already ordained.

In baptism, Jesus told the disciples that as they were going to baptize and teach all nations. Baptizing and teaching go hand in hand. We baptize babies because that's what Jesus wants, but also because promises have been made by God's intent through the waters. It would do no good to baptize a baby and then not teach him/her about Jesus and how He died and our sins are forgiven.

As Gentiles we are grafted in. We belong as God's people because Jesus reconciled us to God through His death. This is why it's okay to baptize babies and trust that God is doing the saving.

Cassia · May 28, 2017

What has been discussed for the past thirty some odd pages is the philosophy behind the ritual of infant baptism, that enacts the shadow that in turn reflects the substance. The substance is God's promise to save to the thousanths generation those who are His.
Is a ritual necessary to have this a fact? No, of course not! Not anymore than not believing Jesus is the Savior makes Him any less so.

The substance that is Jesus is just as capable of removing parts of the full reward placed on us undeserving individuals. At the judgement seat of Christ the accounting will take place.

The 'pass-over' lamb's blood on the doorpost of households and the lamb enjoyed by those to who brought the wave offering of the firstfruits for God's acceptance work hand in hand.

So, next question? Are rituals necessary?
Jewishness extended baptism to new initiatves in the faith & not to those well versed in the religion. Parental dedication was the norm with circumcision the ritual that without excluded. We know now that circumcision of the heart is the definement of a Christian.

So all of this points me to the second death that some will escape from. Hence why I believe the millenium as yet to come.

Lamb · May 28, 2017

Cassia said:
What has been discussed for the past thirty some odd pages is the philosophy behind the ritual of infant baptism, that enacts the shadow that in turn reflects the substance. The substance is God's promise to save to the thousanths generation those who are His.
Is a ritual necessary to have this a fact? No, of course not! Not anymore than not believing Jesus is the Savior makes Him any less so.

The substance that is Jesus is just as capable of removing parts of the full reward placed on us undeserving individuals. At the judgement seat of Christ the accounting will take place.

The 'pass-over' lamb's blood on the doorpost of households and the lamb enjoyed by those to who brought the wave offering of the firstfruits for God's acceptance work hand in hand.

So, next question? Are rituals necessary?
Jewishness extended baptism to new initiatves in the faith & not to those well versed in the religion. Parental dedication was the norm with circumcision the ritual that without excluded. We know now that circumcision of the heart is the definement of a Christian.

So all of this points me to the second death that some will escape from. Hence why I believe the millenium as yet to come.

You have missed the point of what we're saying baptism is.

It's like Jesus who used spit on dirt to help the blind man see. Did the dirt do anything? No. Was a ritual necessary? No. So what then? It was Jesus' decision to heal and to use the mud, but mostly His promise that it would do what He wanted it to do. To heal.

The same in baptism. It's the connection to the cross. It isn't that baptism saves on its own without the Savior and the cross. Scriptures say baptism now saves us and then goes on to say why. It's all about God's intentions. Just like it was God's intentions to save Noah and his entire family.

In baptism God puts a mark on us as his. He clothes us in Christ's righteousness (as I said, the connection to the Savior and the cross). We are given the gift of the Holy Spirit and the forgiveness of sins. It isn't because of the water. It isn't because of the ritual. It's because God commands us to be baptized and then delivers on His promises and they're all connected to the Savior and the cross.

Cassia · May 28, 2017

That does not define infant baptism that you have failed to define except as something to console parents. The scripture used to dispute that it's for those of understanding is routinely ignored . Then you use the bride as definately and say that consent is not needed due to customs of the time. It's still philosophy.

Cassia · May 28, 2017

Rituals are advanced tulmid teachings imo

Lamb · May 28, 2017

Cassia said:
That does not define infant baptism that you have failed to define except as something to console parents. The scripture used to dispute that it's for those of understanding is routinely ignored . Then you use the bride as definately and say that consent is not needed due to customs of the time. It's still philosophy.

The Jews would have been horrified that their babies would not be included in God's covenant. That's not the god they would want to worship. It is by grace through faith that we have salvation and are the bride of Christ (community). In baptism the baby is given faith and included in this. In the modern decision theology thinking the baby is either automatically included (which is a different gospel since it does not include faith...and there is no automatic given of faith apart from the Spirit giving it by His word and that is done by hearing or in the waters of baptism) or they aren't included at all until they make that decision...which means that God has not provided for babies.

So which is it?

Cassia · May 28, 2017

Could you please supply tha scripture that infants are given faith in baptism and compare it to the scripture that says faith comes from hearing while supplying the philosophy that discounts faith is thru hearing... thank you.

MoreCoffee · May 28, 2017

Cassia said:
Could you please supply tha scripture that infants are given faith in baptism and compare it to the scripture that says faith comes from hearing while supplying the philosophy that discounts faith is thru hearing... thank you.

John the baptist was Spirit influenced (or filled) from his mother's womb. That at least points to the possibility of God working faith in an infant.

But the angel said to him, "Do not be afraid, Zechari'ah, for your prayer is heard, and your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you shall call his name John. And you will have joy and gladness, and many will rejoice at his birth; for he will be great before the Lord, and he shall drink no wine nor strong drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother's womb. Luke 1:13-15

Cassia · May 28, 2017

Baptism of the spirit was given to the person that initiated Baptist of repentance. A sign or a principle?

MoreCoffee · May 28, 2017

Cassia said:
Baptism of the spirit was given to the person that initiated Baptist of repentance. A sign or a principle?

That would be reading into the verse. The fact is simple. The angel said John would be filled with the Spirit from his mothers womb. That happened.

Cassia · May 28, 2017

MoreCoffee said:
That would be reading into the verse. The fact is simple. The angel said John would be filled with the Spirit from his mothers womb. That happened.

To fulfill a purpose as Cyrus did because of prophesy. That happened too. But now your jumping into the refuge of mystery so Ill leave ya all to it. Signing off this thread.

MoreCoffee · May 28, 2017

Cassia said:
To fulfill a purpose as Cyrus did because of prophesy. That happened too. But now your jumping into the refuge of mystery so Ill leave ya all to it. Signing off this thread.

Facts remain factual and true even when somebody tries to relabel them as mystery.

TurtleHare · May 28, 2017

Cassia said:
Could you please supply tha scripture that infants are given faith in baptism and compare it to the scripture that says faith comes from hearing while supplying the philosophy that discounts faith is thru hearing... thank you.

Wasn't that given in the video?

atpollard · Jun 4, 2017

TurtleHare said:
Wasn't that given in the video?

Actually, no.

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