What Do Christians believe?

MoreCoffee · Apr 2, 2017

What exactly do Christians believe?

Well, lots of things and sometimes they cannot agree on what they believe. Some christians are so vague about beliefs that one wonders if they believe anything specific at all. Yet there are a few beliefs that all Christians who can be called orthodox (with a small o) share in common. One such belief is belief in the Holy Trinity. I could try to write some sort of definition for you but it's likely that anything I write will be less precise than what has been written in the past by minds far greater and far more godly than mine. So I will give a part of one of the creeds as a working definition of the doctrine of the Trinity and see how we go with that.

Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith. Which Faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the Catholic Faith is this, that we worship one God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity. Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son and of the Holy Ghost is all One, the Glory Equal, the Majesty Co-Eternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father Uncreate, the Son Uncreate, and the Holy Ghost Uncreate. The Father Incomprehensible, the Son Incomprehensible, and the Holy Ghost Incomprehensible. The Father Eternal, the Son Eternal, and the Holy Ghost Eternal and yet they are not Three Eternals but One Eternal. As also there are not Three Uncreated, nor Three Incomprehensibles, but One Uncreated, and One Incomprehensible. So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty, and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not Three Almighties but One Almighty.
So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not Three Gods, but One God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not Three Lords but One Lord. For, like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by Himself to be God and Lord, so are we forbidden by the Catholic Religion to say, there be Three Gods or Three Lords. The Father is made of none, neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created, but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father, and of the Son neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.

So there is One Father, not Three Fathers; one Son, not Three Sons; One Holy Ghost, not Three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is afore or after Other, None is greater or less than Another, but the whole Three Persons are Co-eternal together, and Co-equal. So that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity, is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, must thus think of the Trinity.

I know that some of the language is antiquated in the definition but it is as clear as any alternative I've ever seen.

Josiah · Apr 2, 2017

All Christians have the divine gift of faith (trust/reliance) in Christ as THE Savior (it's what means they are Christians).

Not ALL Christians have EVER ALL agreed on the exact articulation of all doctrines. Nor have ALL Christians ALL been officially registered in the same parish.

Pax Christi

- Josiah

Rens · Apr 3, 2017

Neither confounding the Persons nor dividing the Substance. Makes me think of Saint Patrick.

https://youtu.be/KQLfgaUoQCw

In our church he said always, oh lol my son said that once too to an unchristian visiting couple when he was 5 or so, out of the blue in the middle of a coffee chit chat:
God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit, three Persons and still One. How? I have no idea, but I simply believe it.

MoreCoffee · Apr 3, 2017

Rens said:
Neither confounding the Persons nor dividing the Substance. Makes me think of Saint Patrick.

https://youtu.be/KQLfgaUoQCw

In our church he said always, oh lol my son said that once too to an unchristian visiting couple when he was 5 or so, out of the blue in the middle of a coffee chit chat:
God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit, three Persons and still One. How? I have no idea, but I simply believe it.

The last part is good - it is exactly like my first post

Cassia · Apr 3, 2017

Josiah · Apr 3, 2017

Rens said:
https://youtu.be/KQLfgaUoQCw

IMO, this video from LUTHERAN SATIRE deals with orthodox theology, in what Christians have declared is proper articulation of doctrine. IMO, any Hindu COULD properly articulate the doctrine of the trinity if such person was properly instructed in such.

IMO, what makes one CHRISTIAN, what all CHRISTIANS by definition have in common, what all CHRISTIANS believe (in the sense of faith rather than verbal articulation of dogma) is Christ - our trust/reliance on Christ alone as The Savior.

I'm not 100% sure that St. Mary could have articulated the Doctrine of the Trinity in words identical to the Council of Constantinpole in 381.... I'm not even ENTIRELY sure that she'd automatically shout "amen" to it IF she zoomed in a time machine to 381 and heard the words of that Council (although I strongly suspect she'd agree if she understood it), but I accept that She was fully a Christian and believed that Her Son was/is The Savior. Her faith was not in herself, not in some denomination, not in some "Helper" but rather, instead, in Christ. She was a Christian. I'm not 100% confident Mary articulated the dogma of the Trinity EXACTLY as that Council did (and we do today) but I am 100% confident she was a Christian who fully believed in Christ alone as The Savior.

My perspective.

- Josiah

PS. It's good to look to Lutherans for sound, orthodox theology. http://lutheransatire.org/ is just one such source that does such with humor....

.

MoreCoffee · Apr 3, 2017

Cassia said:

Interesting diagrams. Where do they come from?

MoreCoffee · Apr 3, 2017

In Jesus Christ while on this earth there was no trace of what Satan the deceiver introduced and man, being misled, allowed to enter into human experience and into human nature. It does not follow that because Jesus submitted to sharing in our human weakness he therefore shared in our sins.

He took the nature of a servant without stain of sin, enlarging our humanity without diminishing his divinity. He emptied himself; though invisible he made himself visible, though Creator and Lord of all things he chose to be one of us mortal men. Yet this was the condescension of compassion, not the loss of omnipotence. So he who in the nature of God had created man, became in the nature of a servant, man himself.

mcaughman5 · Apr 5, 2017

One of the best definitions I have read on what is a Christian is summed up by John Hyndryx "What is a Christian? One who, by the grace of God, can declare that he justly deserves the wrath of God, save for the mercy of Jesus Christ alone. He casts aside all hope in his self-righteousness and puts away all pride in his own goodness. One who is glad to be regarded as spiritually bankrupt, saved by the free grace and righteousness of Christ and, by the sheer mercy of God, has been granted a grateful heart which yields in allegiance to Him alone as LORD and sovereign. In a word, one who "glories in Christ Jesus and has no confidence in the flesh." (Phil. 3:3)

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mcaughman5 · Apr 5, 2017

What a Christian believes is found also in the great Nicean Creed. "WE BELIEVE in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.

For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.

For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.

He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come.

Amen.

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mcaughman5 · Apr 5, 2017

The Symbolum Quicunque [Athanasian Creed] is a remarkably clear and precise summary of the doctrinal decisions of the first four œcumenical Councils (from A.D. 325 to A.D. 451), and the Augustinian speculations on the Trinity and the Incarnation. Its brief sentences are artistically arranged and rhythmically expressed. It is a musical creed or dogmatic psalm…The first part (ver. 3–28) sets forth the orthodox doctrine of the Holy Trinity, not in the less definite Athanasian or Nicæno-Constantinopolitan, but in its strictest Augustinian form, to the exclusion of every kind of subordination of essence…The second part (ver. 29–44) contains a succinct statement of the orthodox doctrine concerning the person of Christ, as settled by the general Councils of Ephesus 431 and Chalcedon 451, and in this respect it is a valuable supplement to the Apostles’ and Nicene Creeds. It asserts that Christ had a rational soul (νοῦς, πνεῦμα), in opposition to the Apollinarian heresy, which limited the extent of his humanity to a mere body with an animal soul inhabited by the divine Logos. It also teaches the proper relation between the divine and human nature of Christ, and excludes the Nestorian and Eutychian or Monophysite heresies, in essential agreement with the Chalcedonian Symbol.

PHILIP SCHAFF, The Creeds of Christendom, (New York: Harper & Brothers, Publishers, 1878), 1.37, 39.

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Lamb · Apr 5, 2017

mcaughman5 said:
One of the best definitions I have read on what is a Christian is summed up by John Hyndryx "What is a Christian? One who, by the grace of God, can declare that he justly deserves the wrath of God, save for the mercy of Jesus Christ alone. He casts aside all hope in his self-righteousness and puts away all pride in his own goodness. One who is glad to be regarded as spiritually bankrupt, saved by the free grace and righteousness of Christ and, by the sheer mercy of God, has been granted a grateful heart which yields in allegiance to Him alone as LORD and sovereign. In a word, one who "glories in Christ Jesus and has no confidence in the flesh." (Phil. 3:3)

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I've never heard of John Hyndryx before but that's a great quote! Where can we find more of his writings?

Tigger · Apr 5, 2017

mcaughman5 said:
What a Christian believes is found also in the great Nicean Creed. "WE BELIEVE in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.

For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.

For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.

He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come.

Amen.

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True, if a group or individual doesn't affirm the Nicene creed they neither have a proper biblical or historical understanding of the church catholic.

MoreCoffee · Apr 5, 2017

mcaughman5 said:
One of the best definitions I have read on what is a Christian is summed up by John Hyndryx "What is a Christian? One who, by the grace of God, can declare that he justly deserves the wrath of God, save for the mercy of Jesus Christ alone. He casts aside all hope in his self-righteousness and puts away all pride in his own goodness. One who is glad to be regarded as spiritually bankrupt, saved by the free grace and righteousness of Christ and, by the sheer mercy of God, has been granted a grateful heart which yields in allegiance to Him alone as LORD and sovereign. In a word, one who "glories in Christ Jesus and has no confidence in the flesh." (Phil. 3:3)

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It reads as a very protestant influenced definition but even so it is fairly accurate except for a word here and there.

MoreCoffee · Apr 5, 2017

mcaughman5 said:
What a Christian believes is found also in the great Nicean Creed. "WE BELIEVE in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.

For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.

For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.

He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come.

Amen.

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The translation of the Creed above uses the plural form "we" but if my memory serves me well - and it may not - the creed in Greek uses the singular form "I".

psalms 91 · Apr 5, 2017

mcaughman5 said:
One of the best definitions I have read on what is a Christian is summed up by John Hyndryx "What is a Christian? One who, by the grace of God, can declare that he justly deserves the wrath of God, save for the mercy of Jesus Christ alone. He casts aside all hope in his self-righteousness and puts away all pride in his own goodness. One who is glad to be regarded as spiritually bankrupt, saved by the free grace and righteousness of Christ and, by the sheer mercy of God, has been granted a grateful heart which yields in allegiance to Him alone as LORD and sovereign. In a word, one who "glories in Christ Jesus and has no confidence in the flesh." (Phil. 3:3)

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A great quote, and accurate at that

user1234 · Apr 5, 2017

Thank you, Jesus, for saving us!
Bless your Holy Name!

Josiah · Apr 5, 2017

mcaughman5 said:
What a Christian believes is found also in the great Nicean Creed. "WE BELIEVE in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.

For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.

For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.

He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come.

Amen.

IMO, this is an excellent, historic, ecumenical affirmation of fundamental Christian doctrine. In my Lutheran parish, it is a part of every Sunday worship service (and yes, also in the plural).

But IMO, being a Christian is not a matter of articulating dogma, it is a matter of having the divine gift of faith (trust/reliance) in Christ as The Savior, my Savior, our Savior. IMO, I was a Christian within a minute of my birth (not yet even conscience) as I received Baptism - at that point, I had VERY little cognative information and was unable to articulate anything. But I realize no all Christians would agree with that. In any case, I think that one CAN receive the divine gift of faith WITHOUT that person cognatively UNDERSTANDING much and WITHOUT that person exactly, precisely articulating in Latin (or Greek or English) doctrine(s) in the way Christians have historically formulated. I've even open to the possibility of a 4 year old Christian being WRONG in his/her cogative/mental UNDERSTANDING and verbal articulation of some doctrine.... if my 5 year old niece incorrectly articulated the position of Chalcadon, I'd not dismiss her as a pagan non-Christian. But that's just me.

Just my perspective.....

- Josiah

MoreCoffee · Apr 5, 2017

The thread is not "what makes a Christian?" or "How does a person find salvation?" it is "what do Christians believe?" because the idea is to examine what Christians believe.

Josiah · Apr 5, 2017

MoreCoffee said:
The translation of the Creed above uses the plural form "we" but if my memory serves me well - and it may not - the creed in Greek uses the singular form "I".

If my memory serves me, the Creed (orginally in GREEK) used the plural - WE believe. The Council specifically and consistently used the plural - WE. But when the western parishes translated it into Latin, they did so with the singular, and this soon became common in the East, as well. But liturgically, it is fine to use either.

I found this at a Catholic website,

At Mass today we use the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Profession of Faith. When this text was translated into Latin, pisteuomen (we believe) was rendered asCredo (I believe).

In Lutheranism, both forms are found and both forms are permitted.

Back to the issue at hand....

- Josiah

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