Lowliness is assured by majesty, weakness by power, mortality by eternity.

MoreCoffee

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
19,121
Location
Western Australia
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Catholic
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Single
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Lowliness is assured by majesty, weakness by power, mortality by eternity. To pay the debt of our sinful state, a nature that was incapable of suffering was joined to one that could suffer. Thus, in keeping with the healing that we needed, one and the same mediator between God and men, the man Jesus Christ, was able to die in one nature, and unable to die in the other.

He who is true God was therefore born in the complete and perfect nature of a true man, whole in his own nature, whole in ours. By our nature we mean what the Creator had fashioned in us from the beginning, and took to himself in order to restore it.

For in the Saviour there was no trace of what the deceiver introduced and man, being misled, allowed to enter. It does not follow that because he submitted to sharing in our human weakness he therefore shared in our sins.

He took the nature of a servant without stain of sin, enlarging our humanity without diminishing his divinity. He emptied himself; though invisible he made himself visible, though Creator and Lord of all things he chose to be one of us mortal men. Yet this was the condescension of compassion, not the loss of omnipotence. So he who in the nature of God had created man, became in the nature of a servant, man himself.

Thus the Son of God enters this lowly world. He comes down from the throne of heaven, yet does not separate himself from the Father’s glory. He is born in a new condition, by a new birth.

He was born in a new condition, for, invisible in his own nature, he became visible in ours. Beyond our grasp, he chose to come within our grasp. Existing before time began, he began to exist at a moment in time. Lord of the universe, he hid his infinite glory and took the nature of a servant. Incapable of suffering as God, he did not refuse to be a man, capable of suffering. Immortal, he chose to be subject to the laws of death.

He who is true God is also true man. There is no falsehood in this unity as long as the lowliness of man and the pre-eminence of God coexist in mutual relationship.

As God does not change by his condescension, so man is not swallowed up by being exalted. Each nature exercises its own activity, in communion with the other. The Word does what is proper to the Word, the flesh fulfils what is proper to the flesh.

One nature is resplendent with miracles, the other falls victim to injuries. As the Word does not lose equality with the Father’s glory, so the flesh does not leave behind the nature of our race.

One and the same person – this must be said over and over again – is truly the Son of God and truly the son of man. He is God in virtue of the fact that in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He is man in virtue of the fact that the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us. -- from an old sermon.
 

popsthebuilder

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 17, 2015
Messages
1,850
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Good read.

Though if the son of GOD took on the fullness of humanity and too was perfect, then what does that say of the capacities and potential of man, being shown the way and saved and made new?

peace

faith in selfless unity for good
 

MoreCoffee

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
19,121
Location
Western Australia
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Catholic
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Single
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Good read.

Though if the son of GOD took on the fullness of humanity and too was perfect, then what does that say of the capacities and potential of man, being shown the way and saved and made new?

peace

faith in selfless unity for good

As long as one does not believe and teach "total depravity" the example of Jesus as a perfect man is one that we all may seek to follow but if one does believe "total depravity" then Jesus' perfection is utterly unattainable by any fallen man or woman so none may attain the goodness of Christ in this life and must rely on some kind of transformation done TO them (after they die) to make them like Christ. I do not believe and teach "total depravity".
 

Cassia

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 13, 2016
Messages
1,735
Gender
Female
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Marital Status
Widow/Widower
As long as one does not believe and teach "total depravity" the example of Jesus as a perfect man is one that we all may seek to follow but if one does believe "total depravity" then Jesus' perfection is utterly unattainable by any fallen man or woman so none may attain the goodness of Christ in this life and must rely on some kind of transformation done TO them (after they die) to make them like Christ. I do not believe and teach "total depravity".
"Total depravity" is a doctrinal tern of Calvinists and has a different meaning from depravity known to most.

I don't know for sure what total they talk about but for the most part being born without hope bar a miracle ( of rebirth) is the state one is in.
 

MoreCoffee

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
19,121
Location
Western Australia
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Catholic
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Single
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
"Total depravity" is a doctrinal tern of Calvinists and has a different meaning from depravity known to most.

I don't know for sure what total they talk about but for the most part being born without hope bar a miracle ( of rebirth) is the state one is in.

The "total" in total depravity means totally affected so that every part of one's being is affected by the depravity caused by the fall of Eve and Adam into sin. But it is best to check with a Christian who teaches this doctrine to discover exactly what they mean by it.
 

Cassia

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 13, 2016
Messages
1,735
Gender
Female
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Marital Status
Widow/Widower
The "total" in total depravity means totally affected so that every part of one's being is affected by the depravity caused by the fall of Eve and Adam into sin. But it is best to check with a Christian who teaches this doctrine to discover exactly what they mean by it.

Jonah, being a sign that the Lord gives us the power to be like Him, by dying on the cross and rising from the dead, after three days, is also an example of depravity. Our own nature would just as soon see that God's power destroy in justification rather than be merciful. But the Lord reasons with Jonah "`Is doing good displeasing to thee?' He asks Jonah, as He compounded the misery that even a small plant provided.

Depressed and angry, Jonah reveals the depth of depravity in human nature. "“It is right for me to be angry, even to death!” he pines. He cannot find joy in the mercy of God.

from today's Worthy brief
 

MoreCoffee

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
19,121
Location
Western Australia
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Catholic
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Single
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Jonah, being a sign that the Lord gives us the power to be like Him, by dying on the cross and rising from the dead, after three days, is also an example of depravity. Our own nature would just as soon see that God's power destroy in justification rather than be merciful. But the Lord reasons with Jonah "`Is doing good displeasing to thee?' He asks Jonah, as He compounded the misery that even a small plant provided.

Depressed and angry, Jonah reveals the depth of depravity in human nature. "“It is right for me to be angry, even to death!” he pines. He cannot find joy in the mercy of God.

from today's Worthy brief

Enoch pleased God so it may be that he was not totally depraved, or not ... which do you think?
 

Cassia

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 13, 2016
Messages
1,735
Gender
Female
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Marital Status
Widow/Widower
Enoch pleased God so it may be that he was not totally depraved, or not ... which do you think?
Seth begat Enoch at the time that mankind began to call on the Lord. I think the begating was in depravity but the calling on the name of the Lord was a saving power. The calling on the Lord's name is a defining point of Christianity
 

MoreCoffee

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
19,121
Location
Western Australia
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Catholic
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Single
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Seth begat Enoch at the time that mankind began to call on the Lord. I think the begating was in depravity but the calling on the name of the Lord was a saving power. The calling on the Lord's name is a defining point of Christianity

Enoch was long before Moses and Jesus. Maybe he wasn't a Christian?
 

popsthebuilder

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 17, 2015
Messages
1,850
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Enoch was long before Moses and Jesus. Maybe he wasn't a Christian?
Was he not utterly faithful to GOD.

Is that not synonymous with "Christian"?

If a Christian can be understood to be a follower of the teachings of the Christ of GOD, and those teachings are are aligned with the teachings or words of Enoch, then can it not be understood that Enoch was a sort of Christian as well?

Not formal at all, of course.

peace

faith in selfless unity for good
 

MoreCoffee

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
19,121
Location
Western Australia
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Catholic
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Single
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Was he not utterly faithful to GOD.

Is that not synonymous with "Christian"?

If a Christian can be understood to be a follower of the teachings of the Christ of GOD, and those teachings are are aligned with the teachings or words of Enoch, then can it not be understood that Enoch was a sort of Christian as well?

Not formal at all, of course.

peace

faith in selfless unity for good

Whatever he was he was pleasing to God.
 

Lamb

God's Lil Lamb
Community Team
Administrator
Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2015
Messages
31,641
Age
57
Gender
Female
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Was he not utterly faithful to GOD.

Is that not synonymous with "Christian"?

If a Christian can be understood to be a follower of the teachings of the Christ of GOD, and those teachings are are aligned with the teachings or words of Enoch, then can it not be understood that Enoch was a sort of Christian as well?

Not formal at all, of course.

peace

faith in selfless unity for good

Pops makes a great point in that we are defined by grace through faith whether it was before or after Christ's death/resurrection. It still means that we're all saved in the same way that God gives us faith to trust in Him and we walk in faith.
 

user1234

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 2, 2017
Messages
1,654
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Other Church
Marital Status
Separated
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Imagine being so pleasing to God that God just takes you.
I wonder how many of us truly want that to happen right now today? :dunno:

Also, how does life, family, circumstances affect our thinking about that? Or hopes yet to be met in this life on earth?
 

Cassia

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 13, 2016
Messages
1,735
Gender
Female
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Marital Status
Widow/Widower
I find it hard to define the theology that allowed for Enoch and Elijah to be transported before Christ' resurrection. Or with Moses at the transformation. They were alive enough to discuss Christ' exodus. But I'll take that for what it's worth and realize it's a guarantee that Christian hope is not in vain. :amen:
 

Cassia

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 13, 2016
Messages
1,735
Gender
Female
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Marital Status
Widow/Widower
Seth begat Enoch at the time that mankind began to call on the Lord. I think the begating was in depravity but the calling on the name of the Lord was a saving power. The calling on the Lord's name is a defining point of Christianity
I just wanted to add this verse because I think it's important to something somewhere having to do with the line of Seth calling on the name of the Lord


Acts 3:16
And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.

Gen 4:26
And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the Lord.
 

MoreCoffee

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
19,121
Location
Western Australia
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Catholic
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Single
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Pops makes a great point in that we are defined by grace through faith whether it was before or after Christ's death/resurrection. It still means that we're all saved in the same way that God gives us faith to trust in Him and we walk in faith.

All creation exists only because of God's grace. Salvation is one kind of grace. There are other graces too, rain, sun, life, eternal life, food shelter, warmth and so forth. There are also graces appertaining to goodness and my guess is that Enoch had an abundance of those graces because he pleased God.
 

Rens

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 11, 2015
Messages
4,754
Age
53
Gender
Female
Religious Affiliation
Pentecostal
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
In Relationship
Imagine being so pleasing to God that God just takes you.
I wonder how many of us truly want that to happen right now today? :dunno:

Also, how does life, family, circumstances affect our thinking about that? Or hopes yet to be met in this life on earth?

The rapture has to wait 10 years. Have to take care of my rabbits.
 

MoreCoffee

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
19,121
Location
Western Australia
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Catholic
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Single
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes

user1234

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 2, 2017
Messages
1,654
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Other Church
Marital Status
Separated
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
The rapture has to wait 10 years. Have to take care of my rabbits.
We should be able to have them with us. If there will be animals in God's kingdom of heaven, why shouldn't our pets be there, too?
 

Josiah

simul justus et peccator
Valued Contributor
Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 12, 2015
Messages
13,683
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
As long as one does not believe and teach "total depravity" the example of Jesus as a perfect man is one that we all may seek to follow but if one does believe "total depravity" then Jesus' perfection is utterly unattainable by any fallen man or woman so none may attain the goodness of Christ in this life and must rely on some kind of transformation done TO them (after they die) to make them like Christ. I do not believe and teach "total depravity".


Wrong.


"Total depravity" has to do with justification (narrow) and simply states that we have nothing to contribute to this, that justification is a free gift, an inheritance, earned entirely by Christ; it flows rather naturally from monergism (which of course the Roman Catholic Denomination rejects).

Switching topics, yes - it is not possible for man during his pilgrimage on Earth to attain the full Godhead - to be as morally PERFECT as He is (from conception to death), as OBEDIENT as God is, as LOVING as God is, to be exactly as Christ - we will fall short. I realize some Catholics hold an incredibly high view of they themselves and deny this, but Protestants generally hold that we all fail in this. When a Catholic can point me to some moral, fully human man or woman (officially registered in a parish owned and operated by the RC Denomination or otherwise) who is PERFECT.... who NEVER fall short of EVERYTHING God requires, who PERFECTLY love all people as much as God did on the Cross, who ALWAYS totally, completely "hit the mark" in all matters of morality in thought, word and deed - in what they do and don't do - after I've met them and realize their virtual equality with Christ, then I'll reconsider what Protestants teach on this. But I'm not holding my breath.



- Josiah
 
Top Bottom