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    World Religion & Speculative Theology - Thread: How do you intepret these verses?

    1. #21
      Arsenios's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by MoreCoffee View Post
      What is the church politic, I have never seen that expression before. I have seen "the body politic" as a reference to a nation's government or even to all forms of worldly government but that is worldly.
      Menno has not yet grasped that the Body of Christ HAS organizations...
      He seems to think that the Apostolic Church IS an Organization...
      I tried to show him that he could find what the Original Church looked like...
      IF he were to look at all the Apostolic Churches today existing...
      And KEEPING ONLY that which is common to ALL of them...

      Alas, to no avail...

      None of them have "faith alone", for instance...
      Which is a clue, mind you!!

      Arsenios
      Last edited by Arsenios; 07-01-2018 at 07:55 PM.

    2. #22
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      MoreCoffee is offline Gold Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by Arsenios View Post
      Menno has not yet grasped that the Body of Christ HAS organizations...
      He seems to think that the Apostolic Church IS an Organization...
      I tried to show him that he could find what the Original Church looked like...
      IF ye were to look at all the Apostolic Churches today existing...
      And KEEPING ONLY that which is common to ALL of them...

      Alas, to no avail...

      None of them have "faith alone", for instance...
      Which is a clue, mind you!!

      Arsenios
      That is true, the lack of "faith alone" is a clue.

      Saint Augustine wrote Faith is to believe what you do not see; the reward of this faith is to see what you believe. As the disciple said to Jesus, I believe, Lord, help my unbelief. so there is always a risk in faith of turning away and there is always a promise in faith of receiving what is believed and living for it.
      Pope Gregory I was well known for his alms to the poor, and he gave quite generously of the riches donated to the Church by the wealthy people of Rome. Everything from money to land was given to the poor in some fashion. He made clear to his subordinates that their duty was to relieve the distress faced by the poor.

      He ordered his clergy to go out into the streets to find and care for the poor in person.

    3. #23
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      DHoffmann is offline Veteran Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by Arsenios View Post
      Menno has not yet grasped that the Body of Christ HAS organizations...
      He seems to think that the Apostolic Church IS an Organization...
      I tried to show him that he could find what the Original Church looked like...
      IF ye were to look at all the Apostolic Churches today existing...
      And KEEPING ONLY that which is common to ALL of them...

      Alas, to no avail...

      None of them have "faith alone", for instance...
      Which is a clue, mind you!!

      Arsenios
      Do individuals hold the body of Christ as different organizations of the body or do the churches?
      In other words, does a believer make up the church or does the church make up the believer?
      Do you believe as I do that which ever "church" God calls you to has a specific emphasis that make up the body?
      ie Catholicism is devout in prayer and strict concentration, Pentecostalism devout in worship and evangelising, Protestantism devout in reform, justice and study (rightful dividing of scriptures)... IMO we all have a role both personally as well as drawn to a specific sect of Christianity.

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    5. #24
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      Quote Originally Posted by DHoffmann View Post
      Do individuals hold the body of Christ as different organizations of the body or do the churches?
      Yes...

      In other words, does a believer make up the church or does the church make up the believer?
      The Body of Christ on earth increases and decreases...
      Sometimes, as with Noah, to only a remnant of 8...

      Do you believe as I do that which ever "church" God calls you to has a specific emphasis that make up the body?
      Yes - Our Deacon, when he first encountered the Church, when he and his wife were pretty much ready to find another church because they had pretty much gained as much benefit as they could from the one they were in, he was pretty excited, and went to his wife and said: "Honey, I think I have found the Church!"

      And she said to him: "OK - We can go there for awhile and find out if we want to continue attending for awhile..."

      And he said to her: "You don't get it - I think I have found THE Church!"

      And she replied: "Every church we go to is a church - What are you saying?"

      And he replied with Christ to Andrew the First-Called: "Come and See..."

      So that Sunday she arrived, and walked into this Orthodox Cathedral...
      And she later said:
      "I knew as soon as I walked in and looked around..."
      "I knew I was home..."
      "I knew that this is the Church..."

      God does not do that for everyone...

      ie Catholicism is devout in prayer and strict concentration, Pentecostalism devout in worship and evangelising, Protestantism devout in reform, justice and study (rightful dividing of scriptures)... IMO we all have a role both personally as well as drawn to a specific sect of Christianity.
      And whatever one might find the Orthodox Faith to be devout in, I can guarantee you that the best of her Clergy are praying fervently that many many more Orthodox would be as devout as you would make them seem!

      The Church is a Hospital for sinners...
      It is not a house of condemnation...

      Our job is to show and disciple the Way to those who would make straight the crooked road of our heart, that when God should come, He will find a purified Heart awaiting His arrival...

      And He DOES come...

      Arsenios
      Last edited by Arsenios; 07-01-2018 at 11:28 PM.

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    7. #25
      MennoSota is offline Expert Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by Arsenios View Post
      Menno has not yet grasped that the Body of Christ HAS organizations...
      He seems to think that the Apostolic Church IS an Organization...
      I tried to show him that he could find what the Original Church looked like...
      IF he were to look at all the Apostolic Churches today existing...
      And KEEPING ONLY that which is common to ALL of them...

      Alas, to no avail...

      None of them have "faith alone", for instance...
      Which is a clue, mind you!!

      Arsenios
      There is no apostolic church. There is, however, the body of Christ guided by God via his holy word and the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
      The apostolic church is a man-made creation of political entities who use religion to control other humans.
      It is remarkable to see just how much the RC and EO are like the Pharisees and Sadducees of Jesus day.

    8. #26
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      Quote Originally Posted by DHoffmann View Post
      Does a believer make up the church
      or
      Does the church make up the believer?
      If, with Paul, you believe that the Ekklesia IS the very Body of Christ...
      And this understanding came to Paul when Christ asked him:
      "Saul, Saul - Why are you persecuting Me??"
      Because for all Saul knew, he was but persecuting heretics...
      And he was most certainly not persecuting God...
      Yet he called Christ Lord, and asked Him Who He is...

      So for the rest of his life, he suffered for the sake of the Ekklesia...
      Because by doing so, he was suffering for Christ Himself...
      And he regarded it as his Joy so suffer for Christ...
      To make up by suffering in his own flesh that which was lacking in the suffering of Christ...

      So IF you understand the Church as the Body of Christ...
      And IF you understand Christ to be the Head of His Own Body...
      THEN you will understand why it is that the Church Baptizes us INTO Christ...
      Because it is NOT men baptizing by their own will in the "organization" of the Church...
      Instead, it is Christ Himself receiving us INTO Himself through His Servants...
      It is Christ Himself Baptizing us INTO Himself...

      And this is reflected in all the Gospel accounts of John the Baptist...
      "I baptized you in water; but He will baptize you in the Holy Spirit."
      Clearly it is Christ Who is doing the Baptizing...
      And then we find Him commanding His Apostles to baptize the nations:
      Mat 28:19
      Go ye therefore, and disciple all nations,
      baptizing them in the name
      of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit:


      So which is it?
      Does Christ-God do the Baptizing?
      Or is it His Apostles that do the Baptizing?
      Because BOTH are truely Baptizing...

      And so we say that because the Apostolic Church is Baptizing in obedience to Christ by the Command of Christ, then it is Christ Himself Who is Baptizing IN His Body, the Ekklesia of God...

      This seems so obvious to me that I really do not understand how anyone can possibly doubt it...
      Christ Baptizing IN the Holy Spirit BY His Apostolic Body is NOT the Holy Spirit Baptizing...
      It is Christ Baptiing IN the Holy Spirit...

      Delusion comes in many guises...
      This particular one rips from Christ's Hands the Baptizing of the Faithful INTO Himself...

      Arsenios

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