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    World Religion & Speculative Theology - Thread: How do you intepret these verses?

    1. #11
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      What About Hebrews 6?
      “For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance” (v.4–6a).

      - Hebrews 6
      Hebrews 6 is one of the most difficult passages of Scripture to understand, mainly because we don’t know who wrote the book or the circumstances surrounding its writing. If we knew, for instance, that the author was writing to people who had fallen in among the Judaizers like those in Galatia, he would be making an argument against salvation by the law. For someone to turn again to the law would be to reject everything he had received under the Gospel. The grace he had received in the Spirit would have no meaning. And not only that, once he returned to the law, there would be no redemption left for him; what the Cross could not do for him, the law certainly could not do. This may be what the writer meant by saying such a person would crucify again for himself the Son of God and put Him to open shame. By turning to the law, he would make a sham of the Cross, and no redemption would be available under a works Gospel.

      This is a possible interpretation of the text. However, the writer also could be referring to apostates, to those who were members of the visible church but fell away from the faith and, thus, proved they never were part of the true church, as 1 John 2:19 says. If this is the right interpretation, we need to deal with the language of verses 4 and 5 in connection with an unbeliever. Let’s see if this can be*done.

      First, the text describes these apostates as those who have understood the Gospel and believed it to be true, which is possible for an unbeliever. Second, they have tasted the heavenly gift. This could mean partaking of the Lord’s Supper, something else an unbeliever can do. Third, they have become partakers of the Holy Spirit. This could mean they have some experience with the gifts of the Spirit, which can occur in unbelievers, or they were simply part of the Christian community living in the Spirit’s presence. Fourth, they have witnessed the signs and wonders that accompanied the Gospel, another action that is possible for unbelievers. Last, it says that they could not be renewed to repentance, implying that they once had repented. We know from the case of Esau that a person can have false repentance. If Hebrews 6 is talking about an apostate, then he will become so hardened in his sin that he has no hope of salvation—a sober reminder to examine ourselves to see whether we are in the faith.
      https://www.ligonier.org/learn/devot...about-hebrews/

    2. #12
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      ================================================== ============================================

      Hebrews 6:4-5 [emphasis added]:

      4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted (Strongs G1089) of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
      5 And have tasted (Strongs G1089) the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,


      Hebrews 2:9: [emphasis added]:

      9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste (Strongs G1089) death for every man.

      ================================================== ============================================

      The Greek word translated “tasted” in each instance above, clearly means “experienced”. There is no other way to be “made partakers of the Holy Ghost”.

      Therefore, Hebrews 6:4-6 is referring to people who after becoming “saved”, decide to apostatise.


      ================================================== ============================================
      Seeking to understand with precision, God's holy and coherent revelation to us.

    3. Likes psalms 91, DHoffmann liked this post
    4. #13
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      Quote Originally Posted by MoreCoffee View Post
      I am inclined to see the passage as a warning about receiving the gospel and then abandoning it as if it were something worthless and as if something in this world was better. Yet I am not so sure about the 'impossible to renew them to repentance' clause unless it is speaking of human efforts to encourage a return to the faith; these may well fail when one has hardened one's heart so much that the gospel seems like nothing worth keeping. Yet nothing is impossible with God so I am inclined to believe that even mortal sins (deadly sins for which saint John does not ask Christians to pray on behalf of another) can, with God's help, be forgiven and an apostate may return from his/her apostasy.
      Quote Originally Posted by Arsenios View Post
      Historically, the Church has understood this passage to be referring to the falling away from one's Christian life after Baptism into Christ... And that IF one should fall away, they cannot then re-enter the Ekklesia by repentance unto Baptism, so as to wash away ALL one's sins again, because todo so would put Christ's Sacrifice for us to open shame...

      Hebrews 6:4-6.
      For it is impossible for those once enlightened,
      This is how the early Church understood Baptism - We still do... When we baptize, we call the new members "The Newly Illumnined"... Because they now know what clean is in their own soul first hand...

      and have tasted of the Heavenly Gift,
      This could refer to our rebirth into Christ... eg To our Justification, for now we are members of His Body, the Ekklesia... As Paul states... "Baptized into Christ"...

      and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit
      This refers to the Anointing, the Christing, of Chrismation at Baptism...

      And have tasted the good Word of God,
      And this the eating of the Body and the Blood of our Lord...

      and the powers of the world to come.
      This could be speaking in tongues, and the higher Gifts as well...

      If they shall fall away
      Meaning if they should turn now away from God and pursue a carnal life...

      to renew them again unto repentance;
      This is the Repentance of the Call of God unto Baptism, which they already have had done... They have already entered and arisen from the Waters of Regeneration unto all its benefits...

      seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh
      Yes, we are Baptized into Christ's Death on the Cross, AFTER we have been repenting and been taught the Faith as weere the Disciples of Christ for three years...

      and put Him to an open shame.
      Indeed this is the reason that there is only ONE Baptism - IF one returns to one's sins in a carnal life after that Baptism, one cannot push some magical reset button of getting re-Baptized - You must work with repenting from the sins you have committed AFTER being baptized into Christ...

      Arsenios
      I hope this reply does not seem too self serving because it contains one of my own posts. I agree with the two posts quoted above.
      Pope Gregory I was well known for his alms to the poor, and he gave quite generously of the riches donated to the Church by the wealthy people of Rome. Everything from money to land was given to the poor in some fashion. He made clear to his subordinates that their duty was to relieve the distress faced by the poor.

      He ordered his clergy to go out into the streets to find and care for the poor in person.

    5. #14
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      Quote Originally Posted by MoreCoffee View Post
      I hope this reply does not seem too self serving because it contains one of my own posts. I agree with the two posts quoted above.
      It served as a bump...

      But so differing is Protestant thinking that our words here in this united witness of the Apostolic Faith in them is as if we are proclaiming into the Void...

      They do not understand the Power of Christ when HE Baptizes us INTO Himself...
      Because for them, Baptism is not a Mystery or a Sacrament, but a social expression...
      A public expression of a prior Spiritual Event that is private...
      Hence they do not see Baptism as an Action BY Christ...
      They instead see it as a merely human proclamation...
      They have de-Sanctified what Christ has made Holy unto Himself...
      So that when the Truth is told, they do not relate to it personally...

      For the Orthodox, the MOST important day in a person's life it that day when he or she is Baptied INTO Christ...

      Dumbing down the Gospel of Jesus Christ de-Sanctifies the Commandments of Christ...
      For He commanded His Apostles, the 11, and these alone, to baptize all the nations...
      And He commanded Paul to Evangellize the Nations apart from the Law of Moses...
      Because the Jews confirmed their rejection of the Evangel of Christ across time...
      And they were scattered and their Temple destroyed...
      And the ethnoi, the Nations, received their Pentecost through Paul by Peter...
      As had the Jews under the Risen Christ...

      The Good News begins in ALL the Gospels with Repentance UNTO Christ...
      After Christ's departure, we are Baptized INTO Christ...
      After our entry INTO Christ, the real repentance begins...
      It begins in the purity of heart received in Baptism...
      Foreshadowed by David killing Goliath AFTER entry INTO the Promised Land...
      And yet our words fail in the hearing impaired teachings of the West...

      But some are hearing, and some are heeding, and some are becoming Glorified...

      The Kingdom of Heaven is Christ on earth in His Body, the Church...
      Christ did not fail for 1500 years...
      His Body is here and now on this fallen earth...
      In persecutions and in afflictions...
      Carrying the world on its shoulders to safety in Christ...
      It has been here for 2000 years now...
      And counting...

      Arsenios

    6. #15
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      Quote Originally Posted by Arsenios View Post
      It served as a bump...

      But so differing is Protestant thinking that our words here in this united witness of the Apostolic Faith in them is as if we are proclaiming into the Void...

      They do not understand the Power of Christ when HE Baptizes us INTO Himself...
      Because for them, Baptism is not a Mystery or a Sacrament, but a social expression...
      A public expression of a prior Spiritual Event that is private...
      Hence they do not see Baptism as an Action BY Christ...
      They instead see it as a merely human proclamation...
      They have de-Sanctified what Christ has made Holy unto Himself...
      So that when the Truth is told, they do not relate to it personally...

      For the Orthodox, the MOST important day in a person's life it that day when he or she is Baptied INTO Christ...

      Dumbing down the Gospel of Jesus Christ de-Sanctifies the Commandments of Christ...
      For He commanded His Apostles, the 11, and these alone, to baptize all the nations...
      And He commanded Paul to Evangellize the Nations apart from the Law of Moses...
      Because the Jews confirmed their rejection of the Evangel of Christ across time...
      And they were scattered and their Temple destroyed...
      And the ethnoi, the Nations, received their Pentecost through Paul by Peter...
      As had the Jews under the Risen Christ...

      The Good News begins in ALL the Gospels with Repentance UNTO Christ...
      After Christ's departure, we are Baptized INTO Christ...
      After our entry INTO Christ, the real repentance begins...
      It begins in the purity of heart received in Baptism...
      Foreshadowed by David killing Goliath AFTER entry INTO the Promised Land...
      And yet our words fail in the hearing impaired teachings of the West...

      But some are hearing, and some are heeding, and some are becoming Glorified...

      The Kingdom of Heaven is Christ on earth in His Body, the Church...
      Christ did not fail for 1500 years...
      His Body is here and now on this fallen earth...
      In persecutions and in afflictions...
      Carrying the world on its shoulders to safety in Christ...
      It has been here for 2000 years now...
      And counting...

      Arsenios
      I think that we see the holy scriptures quite differently from our Protestant brethren. For us the Church is central and her sacraments are like lighted cities atop hills by which the traveler may navigate in the dim light of the moon and stars. These things may not be so for many who are Protestant.
      Pope Gregory I was well known for his alms to the poor, and he gave quite generously of the riches donated to the Church by the wealthy people of Rome. Everything from money to land was given to the poor in some fashion. He made clear to his subordinates that their duty was to relieve the distress faced by the poor.

      He ordered his clergy to go out into the streets to find and care for the poor in person.

    7. #16
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      Quote Originally Posted by MoreCoffee View Post
      I think that we see the holy scriptures quite differently from our Protestant brethren. For us the Church is central and her sacraments are like lighted cities atop hills by which the traveler may navigate in the dim light of the moon and stars. These things may not be so for many who are Protestant.
      And their lighted cities are their printed copies of the Bible translated from its original language which they struggle to interpret according to their consciences and with the aid of the Holy Spirit... Leading to differing interpretations...

      I mean, God bless them! They in effect function as Solitaries without the benefit of the Church on earth that the Body of Christ IS... And the glorious part of this is that some of them DO in fact attain God!

      I mean, if Scripture IS the Revelation of God to man - And in a certain way it most assuredly IS - Because it is a RECORD of His Revelation to Holy Men of God - Then one would hope that the Witness of this Scripture from Which it was written and kept across two thousand years would not be summarily cast aside and ignored in the preference for linguistics, heremaneutics, logic, semantic domain, and ethnographies of Biblical cultures, so as to "get" the original intent...

      Arsenios

    8. #17
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      Quote Originally Posted by Arsenios View Post
      It served as a bump...

      But so differing is Protestant thinking that our words here in this united witness of the Apostolic Faith in them is as if we are proclaiming into the Void...

      They do not understand the Power of Christ when HE Baptizes us INTO Himself...
      Because for them, Baptism is not a Mystery or a Sacrament, but a social expression...
      A public expression of a prior Spiritual Event that is private...
      Hence they do not see Baptism as an Action BY Christ...
      They instead see it as a merely human proclamation...
      They have de-Sanctified what Christ has made Holy unto Himself...
      So that when the Truth is told, they do not relate to it personally...

      For the Orthodox, the MOST important day in a person's life it that day when he or she is Baptied INTO Christ...

      Dumbing down the Gospel of Jesus Christ de-Sanctifies the Commandments of Christ...
      For He commanded His Apostles, the 11, and these alone, to baptize all the nations...
      And He commanded Paul to Evangellize the Nations apart from the Law of Moses...
      Because the Jews confirmed their rejection of the Evangel of Christ across time...
      And they were scattered and their Temple destroyed...
      And the ethnoi, the Nations, received their Pentecost through Paul by Peter...
      As had the Jews under the Risen Christ...

      The Good News begins in ALL the Gospels with Repentance UNTO Christ...
      After Christ's departure, we are Baptized INTO Christ...
      After our entry INTO Christ, the real repentance begins...
      It begins in the purity of heart received in Baptism...
      Foreshadowed by David killing Goliath AFTER entry INTO the Promised Land...
      And yet our words fail in the hearing impaired teachings of the West...

      But some are hearing, and some are heeding, and some are becoming Glorified...

      The Kingdom of Heaven is Christ on earth in His Body, the Church...
      Christ did not fail for 1500 years...
      His Body is here and now on this fallen earth...
      In persecutions and in afflictions...
      Carrying the world on its shoulders to safety in Christ...
      It has been here for 2000 years now...
      And counting...

      Arsenios
      For me, baptism is the work of the Holy Spirit in immersing the adopted person into Christ. It is a work of the Holy Spirit alone, not the ceremony of a church politic.

    9. #18
      MennoSota is online now Expert Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by Arsenios View Post
      And their lighted cities are their printed copies of the Bible translated from its original language which they struggle to interpret according to their consciences and with the aid of the Holy Spirit... Leading to differing interpretations...

      I mean, God bless them! They in effect function as Solitaries without the benefit of the Church on earth that the Body of Christ IS... And the glorious part of this is that some of them DO in fact attain God!

      I mean, if Scripture IS the Revelation of God to man - And in a certain way it most assuredly IS - Because it is a RECORD of His Revelation to Holy Men of God - Then one would hope that the Witness of this Scripture from Which it was written and kept across two thousand years would not be summarily cast aside and ignored in the preference for linguistics, heremaneutics, logic, semantic domain, and ethnographies of Biblical cultures, so as to "get" the original intent...

      Arsenios
      LOL, and you, like the Jews of Jesus day, put your trust in the traditions of men over God's word.

    10. #19
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      Quote Originally Posted by MennoSota View Post
      For me, baptism is the work of the Holy Spirit in immersing the adopted person into Christ. It is a work of the Holy Spirit alone, not the ceremony of a church politic.
      What is the church politic, I have never seen that expression before. I have seen "the body politic" as a reference to a nation's government or even to all forms of worldly government but that is worldly.
      Pope Gregory I was well known for his alms to the poor, and he gave quite generously of the riches donated to the Church by the wealthy people of Rome. Everything from money to land was given to the poor in some fashion. He made clear to his subordinates that their duty was to relieve the distress faced by the poor.

      He ordered his clergy to go out into the streets to find and care for the poor in person.

    11. #20
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      Quote Originally Posted by davedajobauk View Post


      Once you accept MEMBERSHIP/ ALLEGIANCE_ 'subsequent treason' is then 'unforgiveable'

      "Go straight to jail - do not collect 'forgiveness' "


      "By it's fruit shall a tree be known" (?)
      Well, we ARE guaranteed forgiveness for repentance...
      Even though we are not guaranteed tomorrow for procrastination...

      You seem harsh, judgemental, and unforgiving, my Brother...

      Whose fruit are you??

      Arsenios

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