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    World Religion & Speculative Theology - Thread: How do you intepret these verses?

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    1. #1
      psalms 91's Avatar
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      How do you intepret these verses?

      Hebrews 6:4-6. For it is impossible for those once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come. If they shall fall away to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh and put him to an open shame. What say you?
      Isaiah 40:31

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      Anyone really convicted about avoiding apostasy is unlikely to be apostate.

      We need to value the Bible prayerfully day by day.

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      Hebrews 10:26-31 expounds on this a bit more regarding apostates from the faith. There are a couple of ways I've seen this argued. First (which is the way I lean) is that the Christian - saved by grace through faith - can, by willful, unrepentant sin, fall away from the faith and be lost. I hold to the argument that when vs. 26 mentions "...receiving the knowledge of the truth" that this knowledge is a saving knowledge, not just information, or being hearers of the word without effect. For these, they are truly lost and cannot again return or become repentant.

      Another way to see this is that the verses speak of those who hear the word of God, and become fully knowledgeable about the truth regarding Christ, but do nothing about what they've heard. There is no saving faith, and so, they fall away. But it's hard for someone to "(taste) of the heavenly gift and (be made a) partaker of the Holy Ghost" if one hasn't received saving faith. That man is still in sin and has no desire for these things - if the second POV is to be believed.

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      Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryDay2 View Post
      Hebrews 10:26-31 expounds on this a bit more regarding apostates from the faith. There are a couple of ways I've seen this argued. First (which is the way I lean) is that the Christian - saved by grace through faith - can, by willful, unrepentant sin, fall away from the faith and be lost. I hold to the argument that when vs. 26 mentions "...receiving the knowledge of the truth" that this knowledge is a saving knowledge, not just information, or being hearers of the word without effect. For these, they are truly lost and cannot again return or become repentant.

      Another way to see this is that the verses speak of those who hear the word of God, and become fully knowledgeable about the truth regarding Christ, but do nothing about what they've heard. There is no saving faith, and so, they fall away. But it's hard for someone to "(taste) of the heavenly gift and (be made a) partaker of the Holy Ghost" if one hasn't received saving faith. That man is still in sin and has no desire for these things - if the second POV is to be believed.
      I agree with your interpretation
      Isaiah 40:31

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      Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryDay2 View Post
      Hebrews 10:26-31 expounds on this a bit more regarding apostates from the faith. There are a couple of ways I've seen this argued. First (which is the way I lean) is that the Christian - saved by grace through faith - can, by willful, unrepentant sin, fall away from the faith and be lost. I hold to the argument that when vs. 26 mentions "...receiving the knowledge of the truth" that this knowledge is a saving knowledge, not just information, or being hearers of the word without effect. For these, they are truly lost and cannot again return or become repentant.

      Another way to see this is that the verses speak of those who hear the word of God, and become fully knowledgeable about the truth regarding Christ, but do nothing about what they've heard. There is no saving faith, and so, they fall away. But it's hard for someone to "(taste) of the heavenly gift and (be made a) partaker of the Holy Ghost" if one hasn't received saving faith. That man is still in sin and has no desire for these things - if the second POV is to be believed.
      I am inclined to see the passage as a warning about receiving the gospel and then abandoning it as if it were something worthless and as if something in this world was better. Yet I am not so sure about the 'impossible to renew them to repentance' clause unless it is speaking of human efforts to encourage a return to the faith; these may well fail when one has hardened one's heart so much that the gospel seems like nothing worth keeping. Yet nothing is impossible with God so I am inclined to believe that even mortal sins (deadly sins for which saint John does not ask Christians to pray on behalf of another) can, with God's help, be forgiven and an apostate may return from his/her apostasy.
      Last edited by MoreCoffee; 06-09-2018 at 03:01 PM.
      Pope Gregory I was well known for his alms to the poor, and he gave quite generously of the riches donated to the Church by the wealthy people of Rome. Everything from money to land was given to the poor in some fashion. He made clear to his subordinates that their duty was to relieve the distress faced by the poor.

      He ordered his clergy to go out into the streets to find and care for the poor in person.

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      Romans 8.38-39 is a strong affirmation of the eternal security of the believer. I don't see how those verses in Hebrews 6 can refer to someone who truly has eternal life.

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      Last edited by Arsenios; 06-09-2018 at 12:18 PM. Reason: Double posted

    13. #8
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      Historically, the Church has understood this passage to be referring to the falling away from one's Christian life after Baptism into Christ... And that IF one should fall away, they cannot then re-enter the Ekklesia by repentance unto Baptism, so as to wash away ALL one's sins again, because todo so would put Christ's Sacrifice for us to open shame...

      Hebrews 6:4-6.
      For it is impossible for those once enlightened,
      This is how the early Church understood Baptism - We still do... When we baptize, we call the new members "The Newly Illumnined"... Because they now know what clean is in their own soul first hand...

      and have tasted of the Heavenly Gift,
      This could refer to our rebirth into Christ... eg To our Justification, for now we are members of His Body, the Ekklesia... As Paul states... "Baptized into Christ"...

      and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit
      This refers to the Anointing, the Christing, of Chrismation at Baptism...

      And have tasted the good Word of God,
      And this the eating of the Body and the Blood of our Lord...

      and the powers of the world to come.
      This could be speaking in tongues, and the higher Gifts as well...

      If they shall fall away
      Meaning if they should turn now away from God and pursue a carnal life...

      to renew them again unto repentance;
      This is the Repentance of the Call of God unto Baptism, which they already have had done... They have already entered and arisen from the Waters of Regeneration unto all its benefits...

      seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh
      Yes, we are Baptized into Christ's Death on the Cross, AFTER we have been repenting and been taught the Faith as weere the Disciples of Christ for three years...

      and put Him to an open shame.
      Indeed this is the reason that there is only ONE Baptism - IF one returns to one's sins in a carnal life after that Baptism, one cannot push some magical reset button of getting re-Baptized - You must work with repenting from the sins you have committed AFTER being baptized into Christ...

      Arsenios

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      Quote Originally Posted by MoreCoffee View Post
      I am inclined to see the passage as a warning about receiving the gospel and then abandoning it as if it were something worthless and as if something in this world was better. Yet I am not so sure about the 'impossible to renew them to repentance' clause unless it is speaking of human efforts to encourage a return to the faith; these may well fail when one has hardened one's heart so much that the gospel seems like nothing worth keeping. Yet nothing is impossible with God so I am inclined to believe that even mortal sins (deadly sins for which saint John does not ask Christians to pray on behalf of another) can, with God's help, be forgiven and an apostate may return from his/her apostasy.
      Quote Originally Posted by Arsenios View Post
      Historically, the Church has understood this passage to be referring to the falling away from one's Christian life after Baptism into Christ... And that IF one should fall away, they cannot then re-enter the Ekklesia by repentance unto Baptism, so as to wash away ALL one's sins again, because todo so would put Christ's Sacrifice for us to open shame...

      Hebrews 6:4-6.
      For it is impossible for those once enlightened,
      This is how the early Church understood Baptism - We still do... When we baptize, we call the new members "The Newly Illumnined"... Because they now know what clean is in their own soul first hand...

      and have tasted of the Heavenly Gift,
      This could refer to our rebirth into Christ... eg To our Justification, for now we are members of His Body, the Ekklesia... As Paul states... "Baptized into Christ"...

      and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit
      This refers to the Anointing, the Christing, of Chrismation at Baptism...

      And have tasted the good Word of God,
      And this the eating of the Body and the Blood of our Lord...

      and the powers of the world to come.
      This could be speaking in tongues, and the higher Gifts as well...

      If they shall fall away
      Meaning if they should turn now away from God and pursue a carnal life...

      to renew them again unto repentance;
      This is the Repentance of the Call of God unto Baptism, which they already have had done... They have already entered and arisen from the Waters of Regeneration unto all its benefits...

      seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh
      Yes, we are Baptized into Christ's Death on the Cross, AFTER we have been repenting and been taught the Faith as weere the Disciples of Christ for three years...

      and put Him to an open shame.
      Indeed this is the reason that there is only ONE Baptism - IF one returns to one's sins in a carnal life after that Baptism, one cannot push some magical reset button of getting re-Baptized - You must work with repenting from the sins you have committed AFTER being baptized into Christ...

      Arsenios
      I hope this reply does not seem too self serving because it contains one of my own posts. I agree with the two posts quoted above.
      Pope Gregory I was well known for his alms to the poor, and he gave quite generously of the riches donated to the Church by the wealthy people of Rome. Everything from money to land was given to the poor in some fashion. He made clear to his subordinates that their duty was to relieve the distress faced by the poor.

      He ordered his clergy to go out into the streets to find and care for the poor in person.

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      Quote Originally Posted by MoreCoffee View Post
      I hope this reply does not seem too self serving because it contains one of my own posts. I agree with the two posts quoted above.
      It served as a bump...

      But so differing is Protestant thinking that our words here in this united witness of the Apostolic Faith in them is as if we are proclaiming into the Void...

      They do not understand the Power of Christ when HE Baptizes us INTO Himself...
      Because for them, Baptism is not a Mystery or a Sacrament, but a social expression...
      A public expression of a prior Spiritual Event that is private...
      Hence they do not see Baptism as an Action BY Christ...
      They instead see it as a merely human proclamation...
      They have de-Sanctified what Christ has made Holy unto Himself...
      So that when the Truth is told, they do not relate to it personally...

      For the Orthodox, the MOST important day in a person's life it that day when he or she is Baptied INTO Christ...

      Dumbing down the Gospel of Jesus Christ de-Sanctifies the Commandments of Christ...
      For He commanded His Apostles, the 11, and these alone, to baptize all the nations...
      And He commanded Paul to Evangellize the Nations apart from the Law of Moses...
      Because the Jews confirmed their rejection of the Evangel of Christ across time...
      And they were scattered and their Temple destroyed...
      And the ethnoi, the Nations, received their Pentecost through Paul by Peter...
      As had the Jews under the Risen Christ...

      The Good News begins in ALL the Gospels with Repentance UNTO Christ...
      After Christ's departure, we are Baptized INTO Christ...
      After our entry INTO Christ, the real repentance begins...
      It begins in the purity of heart received in Baptism...
      Foreshadowed by David killing Goliath AFTER entry INTO the Promised Land...
      And yet our words fail in the hearing impaired teachings of the West...

      But some are hearing, and some are heeding, and some are becoming Glorified...

      The Kingdom of Heaven is Christ on earth in His Body, the Church...
      Christ did not fail for 1500 years...
      His Body is here and now on this fallen earth...
      In persecutions and in afflictions...
      Carrying the world on its shoulders to safety in Christ...
      It has been here for 2000 years now...
      And counting...

      Arsenios

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