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    World Religion & Speculative Theology - Thread: How do you intepret these verses?

    1. #21
      Arsenios's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by MoreCoffee View Post
      What is the church politic, I have never seen that expression before. I have seen "the body politic" as a reference to a nation's government or even to all forms of worldly government but that is worldly.
      Menno has not yet grasped that the Body of Christ HAS organizations...
      He seems to think that the Apostolic Church IS an Organization...
      I tried to show him that he could find what the Original Church looked like...
      IF he were to look at all the Apostolic Churches today existing...
      And KEEPING ONLY that which is common to ALL of them...

      Alas, to no avail...

      None of them have "faith alone", for instance...
      Which is a clue, mind you!!

      Arsenios
      Last edited by Arsenios; 07-01-2018 at 07:55 PM.

    2. #22
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      Quote Originally Posted by Arsenios View Post
      Menno has not yet grasped that the Body of Christ HAS organizations...
      He seems to think that the Apostolic Church IS an Organization...
      I tried to show him that he could find what the Original Church looked like...
      IF ye were to look at all the Apostolic Churches today existing...
      And KEEPING ONLY that which is common to ALL of them...

      Alas, to no avail...

      None of them have "faith alone", for instance...
      Which is a clue, mind you!!

      Arsenios
      That is true, the lack of "faith alone" is a clue.

      Saint Augustine wrote Faith is to believe what you do not see; the reward of this faith is to see what you believe. As the disciple said to Jesus, I believe, Lord, help my unbelief. so there is always a risk in faith of turning away and there is always a promise in faith of receiving what is believed and living for it.
      Saint Jude, author of the new testament letter.

      He is the patron of impossible causes because the scriptural Letter of St. Jude, which he authored, urges Christians to persevere in difficult times.

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    3. #23
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      Quote Originally Posted by Arsenios View Post
      Menno has not yet grasped that the Body of Christ HAS organizations...
      He seems to think that the Apostolic Church IS an Organization...
      I tried to show him that he could find what the Original Church looked like...
      IF ye were to look at all the Apostolic Churches today existing...
      And KEEPING ONLY that which is common to ALL of them...

      Alas, to no avail...

      None of them have "faith alone", for instance...
      Which is a clue, mind you!!

      Arsenios
      Do individuals hold the body of Christ as different organizations of the body or do the churches?
      In other words, does a believer make up the church or does the church make up the believer?
      Do you believe as I do that which ever "church" God calls you to has a specific emphasis that make up the body?
      ie Catholicism is devout in prayer and strict concentration, Pentecostalism devout in worship and evangelising, Protestantism devout in reform, justice and study (rightful dividing of scriptures)... IMO we all have a role both personally as well as drawn to a specific sect of Christianity.

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    5. #24
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      Quote Originally Posted by DHoffmann View Post
      Do individuals hold the body of Christ as different organizations of the body or do the churches?
      Yes...

      In other words, does a believer make up the church or does the church make up the believer?
      The Body of Christ on earth increases and decreases...
      Sometimes, as with Noah, to only a remnant of 8...

      Do you believe as I do that which ever "church" God calls you to has a specific emphasis that make up the body?
      Yes - Our Deacon, when he first encountered the Church, when he and his wife were pretty much ready to find another church because they had pretty much gained as much benefit as they could from the one they were in, he was pretty excited, and went to his wife and said: "Honey, I think I have found the Church!"

      And she said to him: "OK - We can go there for awhile and find out if we want to continue attending for awhile..."

      And he said to her: "You don't get it - I think I have found THE Church!"

      And she replied: "Every church we go to is a church - What are you saying?"

      And he replied with Christ to Andrew the First-Called: "Come and See..."

      So that Sunday she arrived, and walked into this Orthodox Cathedral...
      And she later said:
      "I knew as soon as I walked in and looked around..."
      "I knew I was home..."
      "I knew that this is the Church..."

      God does not do that for everyone...

      ie Catholicism is devout in prayer and strict concentration, Pentecostalism devout in worship and evangelising, Protestantism devout in reform, justice and study (rightful dividing of scriptures)... IMO we all have a role both personally as well as drawn to a specific sect of Christianity.
      And whatever one might find the Orthodox Faith to be devout in, I can guarantee you that the best of her Clergy are praying fervently that many many more Orthodox would be as devout as you would make them seem!

      The Church is a Hospital for sinners...
      It is not a house of condemnation...

      Our job is to show and disciple the Way to those who would make straight the crooked road of our heart, that when God should come, He will find a purified Heart awaiting His arrival...

      And He DOES come...

      Arsenios
      Last edited by Arsenios; 07-01-2018 at 11:28 PM.

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    7. #25
      MennoSota is offline Expert Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by Arsenios View Post
      Menno has not yet grasped that the Body of Christ HAS organizations...
      He seems to think that the Apostolic Church IS an Organization...
      I tried to show him that he could find what the Original Church looked like...
      IF he were to look at all the Apostolic Churches today existing...
      And KEEPING ONLY that which is common to ALL of them...

      Alas, to no avail...

      None of them have "faith alone", for instance...
      Which is a clue, mind you!!

      Arsenios
      There is no apostolic church. There is, however, the body of Christ guided by God via his holy word and the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
      The apostolic church is a man-made creation of political entities who use religion to control other humans.
      It is remarkable to see just how much the RC and EO are like the Pharisees and Sadducees of Jesus day.

    8. #26
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      Quote Originally Posted by DHoffmann View Post
      Does a believer make up the church
      or
      Does the church make up the believer?
      If, with Paul, you believe that the Ekklesia IS the very Body of Christ...
      And this understanding came to Paul when Christ asked him:
      "Saul, Saul - Why are you persecuting Me??"
      Because for all Saul knew, he was but persecuting heretics...
      And he was most certainly not persecuting God...
      Yet he called Christ Lord, and asked Him Who He is...

      So for the rest of his life, he suffered for the sake of the Ekklesia...
      Because by doing so, he was suffering for Christ Himself...
      And he regarded it as his Joy so suffer for Christ...
      To make up by suffering in his own flesh that which was lacking in the suffering of Christ...

      So IF you understand the Church as the Body of Christ...
      And IF you understand Christ to be the Head of His Own Body...
      THEN you will understand why it is that the Church Baptizes us INTO Christ...
      Because it is NOT men baptizing by their own will in the "organization" of the Church...
      Instead, it is Christ Himself receiving us INTO Himself through His Servants...
      It is Christ Himself Baptizing us INTO Himself...

      And this is reflected in all the Gospel accounts of John the Baptist...
      "I baptized you in water; but He will baptize you in the Holy Spirit."
      Clearly it is Christ Who is doing the Baptizing...
      And then we find Him commanding His Apostles to baptize the nations:
      Mat 28:19
      Go ye therefore, and disciple all nations,
      baptizing them in the name
      of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit:


      So which is it?
      Does Christ-God do the Baptizing?
      Or is it His Apostles that do the Baptizing?
      Because BOTH are truely Baptizing...

      And so we say that because the Apostolic Church is Baptizing in obedience to Christ by the Command of Christ, then it is Christ Himself Who is Baptizing IN His Body, the Ekklesia of God...

      This seems so obvious to me that I really do not understand how anyone can possibly doubt it...
      Christ Baptizing IN the Holy Spirit BY His Apostolic Body is NOT the Holy Spirit Baptizing...
      It is Christ Baptiing IN the Holy Spirit...

      Delusion comes in many guises...
      This particular one rips from Christ's Hands the Baptizing of the Faithful INTO Himself...

      Arsenios

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    10. #27
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      ================================================== ============================================

      Don’t you find it amazing? I do. Amazing how people, when issuing statements to support a point they are making, sometimes accidentally reveal information that exposes their established, personally important stances (personal beliefs, denominational beliefs and practices, etc.) to unwanted light.

      The case in point here is found in Post #21:
      Menno has not yet grasped that the Body of Christ HAS organizations...
      He seems to think that the Apostolic Church IS an Organization...
      I tried to show him that he could find what the Original Church looked like...
      IF he were to look at all the Apostolic Churches today existing...
      And KEEPING ONLY that which is common to ALL of them...
      Apparently without realising it, Arsenios has thrown some intense, revealing light on the churches he labels “Apostolic Churches” (by which I understand he means “Orthodox Churches” and maybe the Church of Rome). And while he may not be officially authorised to make statements on behalf of other Orthodox churches, and maybe not even his own, the ‘truth’ he has revealed cannot be disputed.

      ================================================== ============================================

      That revealed ‘truth’ is:
      - All “Apostolic” (Orthodox) churches had their historical origin in one, single, common church;
      - That one, single, common church by definition had to be a ritualistic, hierarchical organisation;
      - That one, single, common church, he labels the “Original Church”;
      - All existing “Apostolic” (Orthodox) churches have deliberately departed from that historically original model;
      - They have deliberately departed from that model by introducing human-based teaching and/or ritual.

      Were that “Original Church” model to have been really set up by the apostles – set up with God’s explicit authority, according to God’s explicit direction – shouldn’t the office holders within the hierarchies of those deviating churches, acknowledge that their introduced deviations did not emanate from God? Shouldn’t they therefore repent of them? – repent of them in sackcloth and ashes (as it were) – repent in sackcloth and ashes for adulterating the pure, initial, God-defined Way? Shouldn’t each and all of those hierarchies commence an official process to shed every variant accretion that exists? Shouldn’t they all have an overwhelming desire to return to conformance with the (supposedly) God-given original?

      ================================================== ============================================

      I cannot help but wonder such things. (I have a mind that is troubled by inconsistent religious deviations that cannot have had their origin with God.)

      And I cannot help but wonder: by what authority do those leaders cling to their non-God-inspired idiosyncrasies?

      But then, that sort of thing can be asked about many churches within Christendom, can it not?


      ================================================== ============================================
      Seeking to understand with precision, God's holy and coherent revelation to us.

    11. #28
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      ================================================== ============================================

      Post #26 (Arsenios):
      If, with Paul, you believe that the Ekklesia IS the very Body of Christ…

      So IF you understand the Church as the Body of Christ...
      It is clear that Paul was referring to what has been termed the “Church Invisible” – that body of True Believers (those alive on Earth) that is found partially within the identifiable gatherings of (supposed) believers, and partially outside of them. He was not referring to some hierarchical organisation structure when he used the term “the Body of Christ” (because not all members of such an organisation would be True Believers}. Nor was he referring to a somewhat confusing collection of such hierarchies.

      Besides, no organisation of that type even existed in Paul’s day. That invention of Man had yet to stamp itself on the Body of Christ in its original, God-ordained, apostolic form.

      ================================================== ============================================

      And I don’t think we’ve ever seen explained, by what authority groups of men have set up divergent hierarchical organisation structures and included differing numbers of books in their Bibles. Surely the documenting of that authority must be one of the most important actions, if not the most important action, that these man-made organisations can possibly undertake.

      Not one of the hierarchical structures in existence today, without direct, demonstrable authority from God for its current form of existence (including why it is more correct than the others) – not one of the hierarchical organisations can honestly claim to truly represent the wonderful God of Creation and Salvation.

      The airy-fairy tolerance of each other’s differences is symptomatic of a complete lack of that clarifying authority from God. (But that lack of authority, and the resulting censure of the existing, divergent, earthly organisations, will never be admitted.)

      ================================================== ============================================

      And so we say that because the Apostolic Church is Baptizing in obedience to Christ by the Command of Christ, then it is Christ Himself Who is Baptizing IN His Body, the Ekklesia of God...
      By “the Apostolic Church”, it would seem that the heterogeneous collection of hierarchical “churches” is meant. As with “the Ekklesia of God”. Yet such definitions are foreign to the New Testament, and stand in stark contrast to the Original Apostolic Church.


      So, based on the above, I have the temerity to ask:
      - Which (if any) of the divergent hierarchical organisations in existence today,
      --- Has the direct, demonstrable authority from God,
      ----- To show that it (in its current form of existence),
      ------- Is the one organisation that is faithfully representing God’s revealed will and way,
      --------- In contrast to the others?


      ================================================== ============================================
      Seeking to understand with precision, God's holy and coherent revelation to us.

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