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    1. #11
      Rens's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Josiah View Post
      You believe that Jesus is no longer literally flesh? That He now is only a SPIRITUAL reality, not physical?
      No like it's described, He had a transformed new body, He can be everywhere, live in everyone and He showed the disciples that He had flesh and He ate fish and could all of a sudden be in their midst without opening the door.

    2. #12
      Lämmchen's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Rens View Post
      No like it's described, He had a transformed new body, He can be everywhere, live in everyone and He showed the disciples that He had flesh and He ate fish and could all of a sudden be in their midst without opening the door.
      But it's still a body, right?
      "Christianity does not require more work but more trust." Pr. Jonathan Fisk
      "Bearing fruit does not make you a branch. A branch is a branch because it grows from the vine." Pr. Jonathan Fisk
      "A Christian's life is not defined by what the Christian does. It is defined by Christ and what He has done for us." Pr. Rolf David Preus

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    4. #13
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      Quote Originally Posted by Lämmchen View Post
      But it's still a body, right?
      yes

    5. #14
      Josiah's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Rens View Post
      No like it's described, He had a transformed new body, He can be everywhere, live in everyone and He showed the disciples that He had flesh and He ate fish and could all of a sudden be in their midst without opening the door.
      According to the Council of Calcadon (accepted by virtually all Christians - Protestant, Orthodox and Catholic) Christ's body could ALWAYS be everywhere. But in any case, we agree it NOW can. So can it be present.... say..... with the bread and wine in Communion so that what Jesus said is fully true: This is my body? Is that possible, in your opinion?

      Just a historical point: All Christians accepted that it is true until a man named Zwingli in the 16th Century questioned it. Not saying that makes it true but it does make it historicallty accepted - universally, 100% - until the mid 1500"s.
      We are justified by works - just not our own.

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    7. #15
      atpollard is offline Prodigy Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by Rens View Post
      No like it's described, He had a transformed new body, He can be everywhere, live in everyone and He showed the disciples that He had flesh and He ate fish and could all of a sudden be in their midst without opening the door.
      Where was it shown in scripture that Jesus was 'everywhere' (or even two places) at once? Where is it shown in scripture that Jesus is 'literally' living in everyone? Isn't that the job of the Holy Spirit? Didn't Jesus say that he was leaving and he would return?

      Jesus isn't a literal head and we are not a literal body, those are metaphorical language used to express a real, but spiritual, relationship. In the same way, talk of Christ in us and us in Christ is metaphorical language that expresses a real spritual relationship between two beings (us and Jesus) each of which also has a physical body (ours still imperfect, and his glorified). Thus Jesus demonstrated both that his glorified body was very much real (he ate and invited Thomas to touch it) while at the same time, no longer limited by the human constraints of time and place (he could pass through doors and be in one location at one moment and a distant location the next). It is worth pointing out that God demonstrated the ability to do the same thing with Jesus' followers. They were in one location at one moment and suddenly, on the road to meet an Ethiopian reading a scroll. Or chained up one moment and have their chains fall off the next moment.

      God Bless,
      Arthur

      [EDIT: Please disregard this post. I missed the context that this was just about the Eucharist. I have nothing to say about Communion which would edify. Enjoy your discussion.]
      Last edited by atpollard; 02-20-2017 at 11:15 AM.

    8. #16
      atpollard is offline Prodigy Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by Josiah View Post
      Just a historical point: All Christians accepted that it is true until a man named Zwingli in the 16th Century questioned it. Not saying that makes it true but it does make it historically accepted - universally, 100% - until the mid 1500"s.
      My history is a little fuzzy, but isn't that about the same time that people stopped buying 'forgiveness' (indulgences), trusting the Pope as the final interpreter of scripture, and started to actually read the Bible for themselves?
      Historically, they gave up a lot of bad habits in a short period of time.

      [I need to go and repent now. That was a bit mischievous of me.]

    9. #17
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      Quote Originally Posted by atpollard View Post
      My history is a little fuzzy, but isn't that about the same time that people stopped buying 'forgiveness' (indulgences), trusting the Pope as the final interpreter of scripture, and started to actually read the Bible for themselves?
      Historically, they gave up a lot of bad habits in a short period of time.

      [I need to go and repent now. That was a bit mischievous of me.]
      That was one of Luther's key points of not throwing out the baby with the bath water. Christ being present in the communion elements is not only biblical but historical through out Christendom until the 1600's where arguable indulgences isn't. Lutheran's pride themselves on this doctrinal approach.

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    11. #18
      Josiah's Avatar
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      For over 1500 years, all accepted the inseparable Two Natures of Christ and thus could accept the Scriptures in the opening post without hesitation. But in the mid 16th century, Zwingli questioned that historic, ecumenical doctrine of The Two Natures of Christ and thus Real Presence.


      The Council of Chalcedon in 451 addressed this issue in detail. It is IMPORTANT to remember that in 451, ALL Christians (all those bishops involved) accepted Real Presence in the Eucharist - the Zwinglianview were virtu ally unheard of at that time.

      This Council adopted the following credal addendum (strictly, they saw themselves as providing a "footnote" to the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed, commonly known to us as the Nicene Creed):

      We, then, following the holy Fathers, all with one consent, teach men to confess one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, the same perfect in Godhead and also perfect in manhood; truly God and truly man, of a reasonable [rational] soul and body; consubstantial [coessential] with the Father according to the Godhead, and consubstantial with us according to the Manhood; in all things like unto us, without sin; begotten before all ages of the Father according to the Godhead, and in these latter days, for us and for our salvation, born of the Virgin Mary, the Mother of God, according to the Manhood; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten, to be acknowledged in two natures, inconfusedly, unchangeably, indivisibly, inseparably; the distinction of natures being by no means taken away by the union, but rather the property of each nature being preserved, and concurring in one Person and one Subsistence, not parted or divided into two persons, but one and the same Son, and only begotten, God the Word, the Lord Jesus Christ, as the prophets from the beginning [have declared] concerning him, and the Lord Jesus Christ himself has taught us, and the Creed of the holy Fathers has handed down to us.



      Again, remember: all those Bishops affirmed Real Presence. Obviously, they did not proclaim a view that would contradict a view they all had; obviously those bishops saw no conflict between their embrace of Real Presence and the Two Natures of Christ.

      Chalcedon insisted that both natures remained inviolable, indivisibly united in one Person. We have neither confusion (which would really result in a tertium quid - a being neither truly God nor man, as in Monophysitism), nor separation (which would in reality undercut the Incarnation, essentially transforming God's presence into a divine indwelling in the man Jesus). Where one is, the other is. These TWO natures are indivisible, united.



      Zwingli Objections:

      A. The Zwingli argument is that Christ CANNOT be physically present with the elements of the Supper, since He has a genuinely human body, which is subject to the restrictions of locality.


      I think there are two problems here (besides forcing a literal rejection of the words Jesus said and Paul penned):


      1. It is a heresy to divide the natures, which is the essence of what the Reformed do here. And it flies in the face of the Scriptures that speak of a "communication" or connection of the natures. Notice all the Scriptures that speak of JESUS (who is ALWAYS the God/Man, NEVER only God and NEVER only man), "JESUS is with us" NOT, "The Second Person of the Trinity is with us." "I (Jesus) am with YOU always even to the ends of the Earth" NOT "GOD but no man is......" The above Scriptures (and so many more) all note that what is true of Jesus' divine nature is true of his human nature - and yes, even vise versa. OBVIOUSLY, a great mystery is here (above and beyond any human concept of physics, to be sure!) but if we are to believe Jesus (and it's not wise to consider him false - or even misleading), then JESUS (always the GOD/MAN, never one OR the other) promises much and says much about himself: and it mandates what the Council of Chalcedon affirmed: JESUS is God AND Man - and these two natures cannot be separated, disjointed. It's JESUS. Who is GOD/Man. Two sides of the SAME COIN, as Augustine taught; just as you can't (or shouldn't!) eliminate one side of the coin, so we cannot (or shouldn't) eliminate one of Jesus' natures. Even thought at times MYSTERY will result (remember: We are stewards of the MYSTERIES of God, we are not commanded to revise God's teachings so as to make it make sense to US).

      2. The Zwingli point that the union cannot be violated is an interesting one, but misapplied here. Consider this verse, "John 20:19, "On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being locked where the disciples were for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them." Now, PHYSCIALLY, a man cannot walk through locked doors. Those disciples where in a room surrounded by WALLS.... with a LOCKED DOOR. Either Jesus just transported himself into the room borrowing the Transporter from Scotty (crawling through a window seems to violate the surprise of how Jesus got there) OR Jesus walked through the door or the walls (a DIVINE action that violates the physics of biological cells - if you doubt, try it!). I think it is undeniable that JESUS (remember: ALWAYS the GOD/MAN, never just man.... never just God) walked through something - something humans CANNOT do, but obviously the MAN Jesus did ("put your hands here....See that ...."). I think the reasonable view is that BY HIS DIVINE NATURE, this is doable (we all agree?) - and somehow ("Stewards of the MYSTERIES of God!!!!"), somehow, we know not how.... this ability impacted his human nature; essentially, His human nature went along for the ride. IMO, this verse does not in any way indicate that The Council of Chalcedon in 451 was wrong, only that it is possible for one nature to "communicate" (to use the ancient, ecumencial term) with the other - without violating that nature. One can "go alone for the ride." Luther spoke of a hot iron that has been sharing a furnance with fire..... the heat "communicated" with the iron, it did not in any way change the essence of the iron (it's still IRON) but it's sharing the heat. Not the best illustartion, but as is TYPICAL, illustrations almost never capture MYSTERY.


      Jesus said, "This is my Body..... Blood." For 1500 years, all accepted that. Most still do. JESUS is present - as JESUS always is and only can be: as GOD/MAN, divine/human, both/and. Is there a mystery here? YES!!!!!!! (darn near ALWAYS is in theology!..... We are Stewards of the MYSTERIES of God). Just as in "I am with you always." True..... in the Upper Room, they would have seen Jesus' human nature, but isn't Jesus' entire point of that appearance to stress, "Blessed are you who have NOT seen and yet have believed?" Those who insist that JESUS cannot be present unless we SEE his flesh and bones seem to be missing the whole point. IMO, those who insist the HUMAN nature of Jesus CANNOT do what all humans can do need to explain away John 20:19 (etc., etc., etc.); their denial of the words of the Communion texts has opened wide the necessary explaining away of a chain of Scriptures.


      B. Zwinglians insist that Acts 3:21 makes it IMPOSSIBLE for JESUS (the inseparable God/Man) to be anywhere but in heaven. This objection, very closely related to the first, is (sadly) based on Calvin's unique mistranslation of the text. Here's the verse: "Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began." Acts 3:21 KJV "whom heaven must receive until the time for restoring all the things about which God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets long ago." Acts 3:21 ESV "whom heaven must receive until the times of universal restoration of which God spoke through the mouth of his holy prophets from of old." Acts 3:21 NAB. But Calvin mistranslated the verse in his Geneva Bible of 1599, "Whome the heauen must containe vntill the time that all thinges be restored, which God had spoken by the mouth of all his holy Prophets since the world began." See Acts 3:21 Greek Text Analysis

      Then, focusing entirely on his mistranslation, Calvin insists, “The principle I always hold is, that in order to gain possession of Christ, he must be sought in heaven because the body in which the Redeemer appeared to the world, and which he once offered in sacrifice, must now be contained in heaven, as Peter declares.” It's a point he will make repeatedly, but sadly is based entirely on his mistranslation. Again, “The same is to be said of the words of Peter, that the heavens must contain him. Peter is not there speaking of a visible form, and yet he fixes the abode of Christ in heaven, which he says must contain him." It's a central argument for Calvin but it's simply based on his mistranslation of a verse.



      Accepting what Jesus said and Paul penned OBVIOUSLY cannot be explained in terms of normal physics, anymore than "I am with you always" and similar Scriptures (indeed, as cannot be done with the Trinity and a lot of theology!). We are called to be 'STEWARDS OF THE MYSTERIES OF GOD." We are not called to deny things simply because our puny brains can't understand how it can be true (and certainly not because we mistranslated a verse). So, what is the PHYSICS of Real Presence? For 1500 years, Christians left that as God in Scripture does: unanswered (mystery). Orthodox, Lutheran and some Anglicans and Methodist continue this. But in the 16th Century, some arose to deny the mystery and the words. The RCC went one direction with their dogmatic embrace of alchemic Transubstantiation and Aristotelian Accidents, Calvin and Zwingli in another - but both proceeded from a foundational claim that "it can't be" and the mandate that the words of Jesus and Paul be subject to their understandings of physics (however bad or wrong such may be).




      .
      We are justified by works - just not our own.

    12. #19
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      Hi all ...
      I would like to toss my two cents worth of opinion here, but I will probably be condemned by the Catholics/RC church as Anathema,
      the Protestants as a heretic
      (whoever 'the Protestants' actually are, I'm still never quite sure)
      and maybe even excommunicated by the good folks here at Christianity Haven, so I guess I shouldn't say anything. °~° GBU.

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    14. #20
      Rens's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Snerfle View Post
      Hi all ...
      I would like to toss my two cents worth of opinion here, but I will probably be condemned by the Catholics/RC church as Anathema,
      the Protestants as a heretic
      (whoever 'the Protestants' actually are, I'm still never quite sure)
      and maybe even excommunicated by the good folks here at Christianity Haven, so I guess I shouldn't say anything. °~° GBU.
      muhahaha

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