• Amused
  • Angry
  • Annoyed
  • Awesome
  • Bemused
  • Cool
  • Crazy
  • Crying
  • Depressed
  • Down
  • Embarrassed
  • Enraged
  • Friendly
  • Geeky
  • Grumpy
  • Happy
  • Hungry
  • Innocent
  • Meh
  • Piratey
  • Poorly
  • Sad
  • Secret
  • Shy
  • Sneaky
  • Tired
  • Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
    Results 21 to 30 of 49

    Ethics & Debate Center - Thread: Has Science Gone Too Far ?

    1. #21
      Josiah's Avatar
      Josiah is offline Bronze Member
      Supporting Member
      Married
      Mood:
      Happy
       
      Join Date
      Jun 2015
      Posts
      6,260
      Country
      United States
      CH Cash
      114,496
      CH Challenge
      47
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      64,312
      Level
      62
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      81.37%
      Rep Power
      878
      Quote Originally Posted by Brighten04 View Post
      Yes, yes, we know that science has been corrupting God's way for many, many years. People have even taken to body modifications. The question is, since scripture tells us that our bodies are temples for the Holy Spirit, do you think the Holy Spirit will dwell in an body defiled with an unclean animal like a pig or a rodent?

      I don't think this "dwelling" is physical or biological. Our DNA is not identical (it's different for nearly every one of the 7.5 billion people on the planet) - there is no ONE human body. We modify our body every time we eat, drink, move, take medications..... IMO, if one has a soul (again, not a physical body part.... NOTHING in our DNA about this) then one certainly may be given the gift of faith and the gift of the Holy Spirit. I don't think the Holy Spirit was hindered by many humans loosing much of their pigment and becoming blonde/blue like me (we still have a soul) or my father in law who has an artificial heart value. But perhaps we disagree.


      My post (which you quoted, thank you) addresses my opinion of the morality of scientific research. But I might add, I doubt that genetic modifications can eliminate the soul - the soul is not physical and not governed by DNA and thus cannot be genetically modified. IMO.


      - Josiah
      We are justified by works - just not our own.

    2. Likes Brighten04 liked this post
    3. #22
      Brighten04's Avatar
      Brighten04 is offline Veteran Member
      Mood:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Aug 2015
      Posts
      2,184
      CH Cash
      22,482
      CH Challenge
      0
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      17,316
      Level
      37
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      51.69%
      Rep Power
      219
      Quote Originally Posted by Josiah View Post
      I don't think this "dwelling" is physical or biological. Our DNA is not identical (it's different for nearly every one of the 7.5 billion people on the planet) - there is no ONE human body. We modify our body every time we eat, drink, move, take medications..... IMO, if one has a soul (again, not a physical body part.... NOTHING in our DNA about this) then one certainly may be given the gift of faith and the gift of the Holy Spirit. I don't think the Holy Spirit was hindered by many humans loosing much of their pigment and becoming blonde/blue like me (we still have a soul) or my father in law who has an artificial heart value. But perhaps we disagree.


      My post (which you quoted, thank you) addresses my opinion of the morality of scientific research. But I might add, I doubt that genetic modifications can eliminate the soul - the soul is not physical and not governed by DNA and thus cannot be genetically modified. IMO.


      - Josiah
      OK, so the prohibitions our Father placed in the beginning do not apply? Is that what you are saying? I am just exploring possibilities. I do not believe our Father placed these prohibitions in vain. Defiling the brick and mortar temple in the Old Testament times was considered a great blasphemy. How much more the human body created in Gods image?

    4. Likes psalms 91 liked this post
    5. #23
      Josiah's Avatar
      Josiah is offline Bronze Member
      Supporting Member
      Married
      Mood:
      Happy
       
      Join Date
      Jun 2015
      Posts
      6,260
      Country
      United States
      CH Cash
      114,496
      CH Challenge
      47
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      64,312
      Level
      62
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      81.37%
      Rep Power
      878
      Quote Originally Posted by Brighten04 View Post
      OK, so the prohibitions our Father placed in the beginning do not apply? Is that what you are saying? I am just exploring possibilities. I do not believe our Father placed these prohibitions in vain. Defiling the brick and mortar temple in the Old Testament times was considered a great blasphemy. How much more the human body created in Gods image?

      What modifications are you speaking of? IMO, God said nothing about modifying DNA or doing anything about it. Indeed, God commanded circumcision (although not via genetic engineering); it seems to me God is not opposed to modifying the body.

      I don't believe that changes in human DNA mandate the abandonment of one's soul or render God impotent to give the gift of faith and the Holy Spirit. I don't believe genetic engineering can remove the soul since the soul is not a function of DNA. Perhaps we disagree.

      But again, my post dealt with the issue of the morality of scientific research. Again, my entirely LAYMAN opinion is that research generally doesn't go "too far" the problem is not that but rather evil people applying the learning for evil causes.

      I might add that I don't think being "in God's image" has ANYTHING WHATSOEVER to do with DNA or biology. Only Mormons hold that God is a man, with biology and DNA. Christians historically have held that God is not physical. But that is a discussion entirely outside the realm of this thread; if you want to discuss whether God is biological/physical, my humble recommendation my friend would be a different thread in a different sub-forum.

      Again, just my perspective.


      Pax Christi


      - Josiah
      Last edited by Josiah; 01-11-2017 at 11:52 AM.
      We are justified by works - just not our own.

    6. #24
      Brighten04's Avatar
      Brighten04 is offline Veteran Member
      Mood:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Aug 2015
      Posts
      2,184
      CH Cash
      22,482
      CH Challenge
      0
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      17,316
      Level
      37
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      51.69%
      Rep Power
      219
      What modifications are you speaking of?
      God said nothing about modifying DNA or doing anything about it.
      Hybridization mainly. God did command that each specie reproduce after it's own kind. I think you understand that.

      I don't believe that changes in human DNA mandate the abandonment of one's soul or render God impotent to give the gift of faith and the Holy Spirit. I don't believe genetic engineering can remove the soul since the soul is not a function of DNA. Perhaps we disagree.
      Perhaps you are right, but what if you are not? With these new technologies, it is possible that profane things can be created that are neither human nor animal. This prospect is very scary imho.

      But again, my post dealt with the issue of the morality of scientific research. Again, my entirely LAYMAN opinion is that research generally doesn't go "too far" the problem is not that but rather evil people applying the learning for evil causes.
      You do not have to keep repeating this. We heard you.

    7. Likes psalms 91 liked this post
    8. #25
      Josiah's Avatar
      Josiah is offline Bronze Member
      Supporting Member
      Married
      Mood:
      Happy
       
      Join Date
      Jun 2015
      Posts
      6,260
      Country
      United States
      CH Cash
      114,496
      CH Challenge
      47
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      64,312
      Level
      62
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      81.37%
      Rep Power
      878
      Quote Originally Posted by Brighten04 View Post
      Perhaps you are right, but what if you are not?
      Of course, ALL here are expressing lay opinions..... ALL of us could be entirely, wholly wrong.

      That said, I suspect in order for DNA modifications to render God and the Holy Spriit impotent.... in order to destroy the soul, the soul would need to be an aspect of our DNA, it would have to be biological. I don't think that is the case. If you do, the genome has been pretty well mapped, which do you believe is the soul? And if not, if the soul is not a function of DNA, how would modifying our DNA in any way (say by races intermarrying), how would that kill the soul?



      With these new technologies, it is possible that profane things can be created that are neither human nor animal. This prospect is very scary imho.

      Again, we've been modifying DNA for thousands of years. You pet and nearly all your food has been modified from anything God made (ie found in nature)... even the flowers in your yard in some cases. Most of these were intentional and done for purely economic reasons (they've gone a long way in permitting the human population to eat; they'd likely be a LOT less food in the world without these genetic modifications). I don't think such - per se - is evil. Perhaps we disagree.


      COULD such genetic modifications be done by EVIL people for EVIL purposes? Sure. I'm not sure that's a problem of learning but a problem of morality; in other words, the "problem" is not that our human ignorance lessens but that evil people use such for evil reasons. Perhaps I need to give an example: Let's say science discovers that if you do "X" to a certain place in the human genome, the person dies.... I don't think LEARNING that is evil or immoral (particularly if that was not the purpose for the research). On the other hand, some Hitler-like person developing something to add to the water that causes that change - and employs that thus killing the enemy - THAT in my view is immoral. But my point would be: the problem is not with the lessening of ignorance, the problem is not with the unbinded quest for knowledge, it's with evil people doing evil things with that: it's a MORAL issue, not a science one.


      IMO, in order to remove the soul from the human DNA, someone would need to identify it on the (fairly well mapped) human genome. That hasn't happened (unless you know otherwise) and frankly, I sincerely doubt it can be since I don't believe the soul IS biological, not a biological organ of the body (although I'm aware some - in ages past - believed that). Again, perhaps we disagree.


      Yup, we are just tossing about our entirely lay (and quite possibly wrong) opinions.... I ain't claiming any special (much less absolute) knowledge here...



      Thank you!


      - Josiah
      Last edited by Josiah; 01-11-2017 at 12:33 PM.
      We are justified by works - just not our own.

    9. #26
      psalms 91's Avatar
      psalms 91 is offline Silver Member
      Moderator
      Supporting Member
      69
      Mood:
      Happy
       
      Join Date
      Jun 2015
      Location
      Pa
      Posts
      12,313
      Country
      United States
      CH Cash
      5,040
      CH Challenge
      4
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (2,428,208 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      52,561
      Level
      58
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      24.89%
      Rep Power
      563
      I believe that this has made some of the things in Revelation possible rather than being something else other than reality. Such as the tormenters thhat rise from the depths for six months. Just a thought but I do agree that we should not be messing around with this stuff just because we can
      Isaiah 40:31

    10. Likes Brighten04 liked this post
    11. #27
      Brighten04's Avatar
      Brighten04 is offline Veteran Member
      Mood:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Aug 2015
      Posts
      2,184
      CH Cash
      22,482
      CH Challenge
      0
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      17,316
      Level
      37
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      51.69%
      Rep Power
      219
      Of course, ALL here are expressing lay opinions..... ALL of us could be entirely, wholly wrong.
      True.

      That said, I suspect in order for DNA modifications to render God and the Holy Spriit impotent.... in order to destroy the soul, the soul would need to be an aspect of our DNA, it would have to be biological. I don't think that is the case. If you do, the genome has been pretty well mapped, which do you believe is the soul? And if not, if the soul is not a function of DNA, how would modifying our DNA in any way (say by races intermarrying), how would that kill the soul?
      Humans marrying humans is not what I am questioning brother (races intermarrying). It is humans mixing their DNA with animals ,especially unclean animals, that disturbs me. Now science says the pineal gland is suppose to be the seat of the soul. That gland is composed of our DNA. Somehow our soul became contaminated with the sin nature.

      MO, in order to remove the soul from the human DNA, someone would need to identify it on the (fairly well mapped) human genome. That hasn't happened (unless you know otherwise) and frankly, I sincerely doubt it can be since I don't believe the soul IS biological, not a biological organ of the body (although I'm aware some - in ages past - believed that). Again, perhaps we disagree.
      I understand man is created in God's image. The whole man, spirit, soul, and body. What happens to that image in hybridization with animals? Seriously, Think about it.

    12. #28
      Josiah's Avatar
      Josiah is offline Bronze Member
      Supporting Member
      Married
      Mood:
      Happy
       
      Join Date
      Jun 2015
      Posts
      6,260
      Country
      United States
      CH Cash
      114,496
      CH Challenge
      47
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      64,312
      Level
      62
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      81.37%
      Rep Power
      878
      Quote Originally Posted by Brighten04 View Post
      Now science says the pineal gland is suppose to be the seat of the soul.
      What? Could you refer me to whatever science journal article you are referring to?

      Could you give me the map of the human genome which has been identified as the "soul?"

      And if the soul has been proven by science to be a part of the human DNA, are you suggesting some scientists are attempting to remove or alter it?



      That gland is composed of our DNA

      Every cell in our body has our DNA.

      Could you give the reference to where it has been scientifically shown where on our DNA the "soul" is located? I'm kind of a loss here, not following you at all.


      Somehow our soul became contaminated with the sin nature

      Okay. But "sin" is not a gene in our DNA and cannot be altered by genetic engineering.... but you seem to be suggesting that the soul and sin ARE present in our human genome, could you please give the scientific reference for this? I'm be interested where it is on our DNA.... if it's unique to human DNA strains and who is trying to eliminate or alter it. Of course, this all could render Jesus and Christianity irrelevant: all could be made sinless just by (what could be a very simple, minor) scientific alteration.



      I understand man is created in God's image
      I agree. It just has nothing to do with physics or biology. Only the LDS believes that God is a biological being, with a body and DNA.


      ?????



      - Josiah
      We are justified by works - just not our own.

    13. #29
      Brighten04's Avatar
      Brighten04 is offline Veteran Member
      Mood:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Aug 2015
      Posts
      2,184
      CH Cash
      22,482
      CH Challenge
      0
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      17,316
      Level
      37
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      51.69%
      Rep Power
      219
      What? Could you refer me to whatever science journal article you are referring to?
      There are a few. But you can google it yourself. I didn't make it up. But here is one. If you are really interested you should research it yourself.
      http://www.collective-evolution.com/...-pineal-gland/

      Okay. But "sin" is not a gene in our DNA and cannot be altered by genetic engineering.... but you seem to be suggesting that the soul and sin ARE present in our human genome, could you please give the scientific reference for this? I'm be interested where it is on our DNA.... if it's unique to human DNA strains and who is trying to eliminate or alter it. Of course, this all could render Jesus and Christianity irrelevant: all could be made sinless just by (what could be a very simple, minor) scientific alteration.
      The sin nature is passed from generation to generation from the first man.Sinful man is not in God's likeness. Scripture says this of Adam
      Genesis 5:3
      And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:

      Note Seth was not in the likeness of God, but in sinful Adam's likeness.So sin is in the bloodline of mankind. Blood has DNA.

      I agree. It just has nothing to do with physics or biology. Only the LDS
      believes that God is a biological being, with a body and DNA.
      FYI I am Baptist not LDS.

    14. #30
      Brighten04's Avatar
      Brighten04 is offline Veteran Member
      Mood:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Aug 2015
      Posts
      2,184
      CH Cash
      22,482
      CH Challenge
      0
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      17,316
      Level
      37
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      51.69%
      Rep Power
      219
      This is an interesting video that may answer some questions.

    Bookmarks

    Posting Permissions

    • You may not post new threads
    • You may not post replies
    • You may not post attachments
    • You may not edit your posts
    •