Have we lost the faith of our fathers?

Stravinsk · Dec 4, 2016

MoreCoffee said:
It looks like clouds and the moon in the night sky but if it is really such a photo I cannot tell from the poor quality resolution and the scant information provided by you in your post.

This image, shown below, is more easily identified as the moon in the night sky with clouds.

Ah, well I asked Mark - but he seems to be gone for the moment.

Tell me, in the photo I presented OR the one you did, where is the light coming from?

MoreCoffee · Dec 4, 2016

Stravinsk said:
Ah, well I asked Mark - but he seems to be gone for the moment.

Tell me, in the photo I presented OR the one you did, where is the light coming from?

The light is reflected from the moon's surface, some of it shines on the earth.

Lamb · Dec 4, 2016

Reflected light is sometimes very strong. Artists have to remember that lighting is tricky especially when you have a strong light source and objects that reflect it.

Stravinsk · Dec 4, 2016

MoreCoffee said:
The light is reflected from the moon's surface, some of it shines on the earth.

Lämmchen said:
Reflected light is sometimes very strong. Artists have to remember that lighting is tricky especially when you have a strong light source and objects that reflect it.

Please look at the first image carefully. I ask because it is more prominent in that one than the one you provided - although the second also shows it.

How exactly is the moon reflecting light from the sun with clouds in the way - and NOT illuminating those clouds? There is a cloud directly in front of the moon in both photos, although the first shows it more clearly. Are you telling me that the Sun, massive as it is said to be, is somehow picking an area inside the moon area not to shine it's light?

MoreCoffee · Dec 4, 2016

Stravinsk said:
Please look at the first image carefully. I ask because it is more prominent in that one than the one you provided - although the second also shows it.

How exactly is the moon reflecting light from the sun with clouds in the way - and NOT illuminating those clouds? There is a cloud directly in front of the moon in both photos, although the first shows it more clearly. Are you telling me that the Sun, massive as it is said to be, is somehow picking an area inside the moon area not to shine it's light?

The Earth lies below the clouds in the earth atmosphere and the moon far beyond the atmosphere and above the clouds. The light on the moon did not pass through the earth before reaching the moon.

Here is an image of the moonlight illuminating the clouds from above. It shows that the moon is far above the clouds and that its light shines on the upward facing surfaces of the clouds.

Stravinsk · Dec 4, 2016

MoreCoffee said:
The Earth lies between the clouds in the earth atmosphere and the moon far beyond the atmosphere. The light on the moon did not pass through the earth before reaching the moon.

Here is the original again for clarity:

In order for the moon to be full, it must be in "full view" of the *source* of light it is supposed to reflect. We can tell it is full. The source must be from behind your perspective for you to see the moon as fully illuminated. And yet, clouds obscure the moon and don't show that any sunlight is reaching them directly at all.

MoreCoffee · Dec 4, 2016

Stravinsk said:
Here is the original again for clarity:

In order for the moon to be full, it must be in "full view" of the *source* of light it is supposed to reflect. We can tell it is full. The source must be from behind your perspective for you to see the moon as fully illuminated. And yet, clouds obscure the moon and don't show that any sunlight is reaching them directly at all.

A full moon need not be directly in the shadow cast by the earth. But sometimes it is and then we see a lunar eclipse in which the moon goes dark-red as the earth's shadow passes over it.

Surely, Stravinsk, you are playing troll now. Surely you believe that the clouds are closer to the Earth than they are to the moon and that the earth's shadow blocks sunlight from reaching the earth-side of the clouds?

Stravinsk · Dec 4, 2016

MoreCoffee said:
The Earth lies between the clouds in the earth atmosphere and the moon far beyond the atmosphere. The light on the moon did not pass through the earth before reaching the moon.

Here is an image of the moonlight illuminating the clouds from above. It shows that the moon is far above the clouds and that its light shines on the upward facing surfaces of the clouds.

Are you telling me that the Sun is in the sky in this photo? It is dark, except for the moonlight. There is no sun in the sky - it is not illuminating the sky as it does in daytime - but somehow *just* illuminates the moon as a reflective source without showing any signs otherwise of being present in the sky?

Stravinsk · Dec 4, 2016

Your bibles tell you that the moon emits it's own light.

This is what we see in both photos, based on the properties of light, direction of light and what is being lit.

Your science tells you this is a lie.

It is the part of the cognitive dissonance of the lie that the moon reflects the light of the sun. You can't believe your own eyes and what they tell you a thousands times a day about light and source of light.

MoreCoffee · Dec 4, 2016

Stravinsk said:
Are you telling me that the Sun is in the sky in this photo? It is dark, except for the moonlight. There is no sun in the sky - it is not illuminating the sky as it does in daytime - but somehow *just* illuminates the moon as a reflective source without showing any signs otherwise of being present in the sky?

The sun is always in space and since space might be seen as "sky" the answer to your question is yes, the sun is always in the sky above one side of the earth and hidden from the other by the bulk of the earth itself. Since the moon too is always in the sky in the same sense in which the sun is - but four hundred times closer to the earth than is the sun yet the moon is still far from the earth at about three hundred eighty four thousand four hundred kilometres - the matter of illumination is a question of trigonometry in three dimensions. The moon, earth and sun are arranged so that at various times the moon is between the sun and the earth and at other times the earth is between the sun and the moon. This accounts for the phases of the moon and both lunar and solar eclipses.

Stravinsk · Dec 4, 2016

MoreCoffee said:
The sun is always in space and since space might be seen as "sky" the answer to your question is yes, the sun is always in the sky above one side of the earth and hidden from the other by the bulk of the earth itself. Since the moon too is always in the sky in the same sense in which the sun is - but four hundred times closer to the earth than is the sun yet the moon is still far from the earth at about three hundred eighty four thousand four hundred kilometres - the matter of illumination is a question of trigonometry in three dimensions. The moon, earth and sun are arranged so that at various times the moon is between the sun and the earth and at other times the earth is between the sun and the moon. This accounts for the phases of the moon and both lunar and solar eclipses.

Here is a diagram of how your "Solar System" is supposed to work.

As you can see - the directional light of the sun should be illuminating the full moon from the illustrated position.

There is a slight problem with this if there are clouds "in the way" that aren't also being illuminated.

That is, unless, your Bibles are telling you the truth and the moon emits it's own light - which is clearly seen. The source of light is not the sun - it is the moon.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

MoreCoffee · Dec 4, 2016

Stravinsk said:
Here is a diagram of how your "Solar System" is supposed to work.

As you can see - the directional light of the sun should be illuminating the full moon from the illustrated position.

There is a slight problem with this if there are clouds "in the way" that aren't also being illuminated.

That is, unless, your Bibles are telling you the truth and the moon emits it's own light - which is clearly seen. The source of light is not the sun - it is the moon.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

That's a diagram of the earth and the moon. The Sun is not included. Have you ever been to a planetarium?

Stravinsk · Dec 4, 2016

MoreCoffee said:
That's a diagram of the earth and the moon. The Sun is not included. Have you ever been to a planetarium?

It's a diagram of the earth, moon cycles and how the sun is supposed to effect them - given the position of the sun and the direction of light to be reflected.

It simply does not match what we see in the photos though. The clouds in front of the moon are not being illuminated, and it is clear that the direction of light is from the moon, not the sun. Remember, the moons phases are supposed to be based on REFLECTION and partial reflection. The earth is not "in the way" based on the direction of light during a full moon.

The direction of the moon's light clearly show the source of the light (given if it is a pure reflection) - and they seem to reflect only a relatively local area of the clouds. How is it possible if the moon is so far away from them?

Whether I have been to a planetarium or not is irrelevant to the discussion under way.

MoreCoffee · Dec 4, 2016

Stravinsk said:
It's a diagram of the earth, moon cycles and how the sun is supposed to effect them - given the position of the sun and the direction of light to be reflected.

It simply does not match what we see in the photos though. The clouds in front of the moon are not being illuminated, and it is clear that the direction of light is from the moon, not the sun. Remember, the moons phases are supposed to be based on REFLECTION and partial reflection. The earth is not "in the way" based on the direction of light during a full moon.

The direction of the moon's light clearly show the source of the light (given if it is a pure reflection) - and they seem to reflect only a relatively local area of the clouds. How is it possible if the moon is so far away from them?

Whether I have been to a planetarium or not is irrelevant to the discussion under way.

Clouds in front of the moon? Do you mean clouds in earth's atmosphere that are between the moon and the earth? Why would they be illuminated when the earth and its atmosphere are in night?

Stravinsk · Dec 4, 2016

MoreCoffee said:
Clouds in front of the moon? Do you mean clouds in earth's atmosphere that are between the moon and the earth? Why would they be illuminated when the earth and its atmosphere are in night?

How is the moon's light localized in both photos if it is so far away removed from the clouds? Both photos clearly show light that appears to be localized among clouds. If the moon is very far away, removed from the atmosphere so that it is nowhere near the clouds, then why does the light appear to be localized among a small area of clouds? Shouldn't it be spread over a much greater area?

MoreCoffee · Dec 4, 2016

Stravinsk said:
How is the moon's light localized in both photos if it is so far away removed from the clouds? Both photos clearly show light that appears to be localized among clouds. If the moon is very far away, removed from the atmosphere so that it is nowhere near the clouds, then why does the light appear to be localized among a small area of clouds? Shouldn't it be spread over a much greater area?

Take a jet trip at night when the moon is full and bright and see how ubiquitous the moonlight on the clouds really is.

Stravinsk · Dec 4, 2016

Localized moonlight.

Localized moonlight.

If the moon was nearly 390,000 km away (so that it can be fully reflected way above our atmosphere by the sun), how does it only illuminate such a small relative area of clouds?

Are you telling me that the Moon reflects the sun to show a full moon when the earth is not "in the way" nearly 400,000km away, and then shoots a small array of moonbeams to illuminate a tiny area of clouds?

And we see this effect of light anywhere else? This small reflected area from so far away? Is someone going to now say I witness an optical illusion every time I have a gander at the moon and what the reflected light off clouds mean contrary to my daily perception of lights and shadows?

MarkFL · Dec 4, 2016

Stravinsk said:
Known to be untrue.

So, you would claim that being uninformed leads to making better decisions? :huh:

MarkFL · Dec 4, 2016

Lämmchen said:
Strange how I find myself being drawn closer to God even more when He protects my family from danger, disease and gives us more than we need. I ponder about this quite a lot actually. My daughter is very important to me and when He works in her life in ways I can't explain, it makes me so thankful I don't believe in God just because I have insecurities or fears. That's not why I believe at all.

Well, that statement is meant as a generality and not to be applied to every single case. If I had to guess, I would cite increasing access to information as the key riving force behind increasing secularization, rather than affluence...but I have not spent much time pondering the issue, nor am I very knowledgeable about psychology. And of course, I can point to several people I know who are extremely well informed and who are also very devoutly faithful. My statement would be a generality as well.

Stravinsk · Dec 4, 2016

MarkFL said:
So, you would claim that being uninformed leads to making better decisions? :huh:

On what? I followed that statement with a question to you based on a photo.

In the model taught to us, the moon is said to be a sort of convex mirror, reflecting the light of the sun. This is visually how a convex mirror operates with light:

From nearly 400,000km away - we shouldn't see the moon illuminating such small areas of clouds - if it were a reflective surface of the sun as it is supposed to be in the Heliocentric model.

But that is what we see with the moon's illumination. That means either optics changed for the "moon mirror" or the moon is a lot closer than the BS science you believe in the model. Which of course presents some issues when dealing with obstructions of light and what we see the moon does behind partial cloud cover.

Or - it gives off it's own light like the bible says and is a lot closer as it appears to be.

Have we lost the faith of our fathers?

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