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    Ethics & Debate Center - Thread: Is faith a wholly voluntary act?

    1. #21
      Josiah's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Rens View Post
      I think faith, also because it says: you all received the measure of faith.
      Received..... not "freely chose of your own absolute free will - God has nothin to do with it, pat yourself and boast that you performed a good work meriting heaven!"


      I think there are MANY Scriptures that sure suggest that faith is a gift of God and God's blessing to us; and no one yet has been able to produce ANYTHING indicating that faith is a "WHOLLY VOLUNTARY" choice of self.


      But of course, all this is just a part of the larger questions: WHO IS THE SAVIOR? If Jesus is - then what is involved in salvation (in the sense of justification, narrow) is Jesus' act, work, doing. If self is - then what is involved in salvation is our stuff (such as self WHOLLY VOLUNTARILY performing the good work of faith, etc., etc., etc.). You can look to the Cross or you can look in the mirror. THAT'S the real debate between most Protestants and Catholics...... this issue is just a subsection of that discussion.



      - Josiah

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    3. #22
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      Quote Originally Posted by Lämmchen View Post
      What does God's Grace include then in that gift to you? It includes faith so you believe in the forgiveness of sins. Why exclude faith in that verse when it is inclusive? God provides. He gifts us with His Son. He gifts us with His death. He gifts us with his forgiveness. He gifts us with His resurrection. He gifts us with grace so we can turn to Him. God's gifting is unending.
      Grace may include faith, that is the subject of this thread. One needs to show that grace includes a gift of faith without which one cannot believe the gospel. Josiah also mentioned that faith is an act of God and that too needs to be shown to be true.

    4. #23
      Lämmchen's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by MoreCoffee View Post
      Grace may include faith, that is the subject of this thread. One needs to show that grace includes a gift of faith without which one cannot believe the gospel. Josiah also mentioned that faith is an act of God and that too needs to be shown to be true.
      It's been shown already.

      Can you show now that man CAN in some way, apart from God, come to faith in order to believe the Gospel? I've never been given any biblical scripture as proof.
      "Christianity does not require more work but more trust." Pr. Jonathan Fisk
      "Bearing fruit does not make you a branch. A branch is a branch because it grows from the vine." Pr. Jonathan Fisk
      "A Christian's life is not defined by what the Christian does. It is defined by Christ and what He has done for us." Pr. Rolf David Preus

    5. #24
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      Quote Originally Posted by Lämmchen View Post
      It's been shown already.

      Can you show now that man CAN in some way, apart from God, come to faith in order to believe the Gospel? I've never been given any biblical scripture as proof.
      I do not think it's been shown. Maybe you can explain how you come to the conclusion that it has?

    6. #25
      Lämmchen's Avatar
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      Well, I already have. I've shown you how it's connected to God's working in us for His salvation. It's all God's doing.

      Your turn now. I'd like biblical proof, please
      "Christianity does not require more work but more trust." Pr. Jonathan Fisk
      "Bearing fruit does not make you a branch. A branch is a branch because it grows from the vine." Pr. Jonathan Fisk
      "A Christian's life is not defined by what the Christian does. It is defined by Christ and what He has done for us." Pr. Rolf David Preus

    7. #26
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      Quote Originally Posted by Lämmchen View Post
      Well, I already have. I've shown you how it's connected to God's working in us for His salvation. It's all God's doing.

      Your turn now. I'd like biblical proof, please
      It's a matter of burden of proof is it not? I have not asserted that faith is or is not a gift from God. Technically everything that any creature has is a gift from God but that is not what this thread is about. Freedom is a gift from God and it may be that the grace given by God is grace given to a free creature who can choose to accept, reject, use, or ignore it. The passages that you and Josiah supplied need further exegesis before one can say that they teach faith is a gift without which no one can believe the gospel.

    8. #27
      Lämmchen's Avatar
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      Well the question of the thread asks "Is faith a wholly voluntary act?" and the answer according to scripture is No. Now, do you agree with it?
      "Christianity does not require more work but more trust." Pr. Jonathan Fisk
      "Bearing fruit does not make you a branch. A branch is a branch because it grows from the vine." Pr. Jonathan Fisk
      "A Christian's life is not defined by what the Christian does. It is defined by Christ and what He has done for us." Pr. Rolf David Preus

    9. #28
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      Quote Originally Posted by Lämmchen View Post
      Well the question of the thread asks "Is faith a wholly voluntary act?" and the answer according to scripture is No. Now, do you agree with it?
      I am not convinced that the holy scriptures give that answer.

    10. #29
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      The glossary at the back of the CCC says - FAITH: Both a gift of God and a human act by which the believer gives personal adherence to God who invites his response, and freely assents to the whole truth that God has revealed. It is this revelation of God which the Church proposes for our belief, and which we profess in the Creed, celebrate in the sacraments, live by right conduct that fulfills the twofold commandment of charity (as specified in the ten commandments), and respond to in our prayer of faith. Faith is both a theological virtue given by God as grace, and an obligation which flows from the first commandment of God (26, 142, 150, 1814, 2087).

      The CCC says -
      PART ONE:

      THE PROFESSION OF FAITH

      SECTION ONE

      "I BELIEVE" - "WE BELIEVE"


      26 We begin our profession of faith by saying: "I believe" or "We believe". Before expounding the Church's faith, as confessed in the Creed, celebrated in the liturgy and lived in observance of God's commandments and in prayer, we must first ask what "to believe" means. Faith is man's response to God, who reveals himself and gives himself to man, at the same time bringing man a superabundant light as he searches for the ultimate meaning of his life. Thus we shall consider first that search (Chapter One), then the divine Revelation by which God comes to meet man (Chapter Two), and finally the response of faith (Chapter Three).

      CHAPTER THREE

      MAN'S RESPONSE TO GOD

      142 By his Revelation, "the invisible God, from the fullness of his love, addresses men as his friends, and moves among them, in order to invite and receive them into his own company."1 The adequate response to this invitation is faith.

      143 By faith, man completely submits his intellect and his will to God.2 With his whole being man gives his assent to God the revealer. Sacred Scripture calls this human response to God, the author of revelation, "the obedience of faith".3
      1 DV 2; cf. ⇒ Col 1:15; ⇒ I Tim 1:17; ⇒ Ex 33:11; ⇒ Jn 15:14-15; Bar 3:38 (Vulg.).
      2 Cf. DV 5.
      3 Cf. ⇒ Rom 1:5; ⇒ 16:26

      II. "I Know Whom I Have Believed"16

      To believe in God alone

      150 Faith is first of all a personal adherence of man to God. At the same time, and inseparably, it is a free assent to the whole truth that God has revealed. As personal adherence to God and assent to his truth, Christian faith differs from our faith in any human person. It is right and just to entrust oneself wholly to God and to believe absolutely what he says. It would be futile and false to place such faith in a creature.17

      To believe in Jesus Christ, the Son of God

      151 For a Christian, believing in God cannot be separated from believing in the One he sent, his "beloved Son", in whom the Father is "well pleased"; God tells us to listen to him.18 The Lord himself said to his disciples: "Believe in God, believe also in me."19 We can believe in Jesus Christ because he is himself God, the Word made flesh: "No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known."20 Because he "has seen the Father", Jesus Christ is the only one who knows him and can reveal him.21

      To believe in the Holy Spirit

      152 One cannot believe in Jesus Christ without sharing in his Spirit. It is the Holy Spirit who reveals to men who Jesus is. For "no one can say "Jesus is Lord", except by the Holy Spirit",22 who "searches everything, even the depths of God. . No one comprehends the thoughts of God, except the Spirit of God."23 Only God knows God completely: we believe in the Holy Spirit because he is God.

      The Church never ceases to proclaim her faith in one only God: Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
      16 ⇒ 2 Tim 1:12
      17 Cf. ⇒ Jer 17:5-6; ⇒ Pss 40:5; ⇒ 146:3-4
      18 ⇒ Mk 1:11; cf. ⇒ 9:7
      19 ⇒ Jn 14:1
      20 ⇒ Jn 1:18.
      21 ⇒ Jn 6:46; cf. ⇒ Mt 11:27
      22 ⇒ I Cor 12:3
      23 ⇒ I Cor 2:10-11.
      Last edited by MoreCoffee; 10-26-2016 at 11:16 AM.

    11. #30
      Lämmchen's Avatar
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      We can only plant seeds. It's up to the Holy Spirit to convict and convince. Scripture has been given showing the connection of God's grace, faith and salvation. Man is not his own Savior as Josiah points out which is why faith comes from God, not within us.
      "Christianity does not require more work but more trust." Pr. Jonathan Fisk
      "Bearing fruit does not make you a branch. A branch is a branch because it grows from the vine." Pr. Jonathan Fisk
      "A Christian's life is not defined by what the Christian does. It is defined by Christ and what He has done for us." Pr. Rolf David Preus

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