Is faith a wholly voluntary act?

Josiah

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I think faith, also because it says: you all received the measure of faith.

Received..... not "freely chose of your own absolute free will - God has nothin to do with it, pat yourself and boast that you performed a good work meriting heaven!"


I think there are MANY Scriptures that sure suggest that faith is a gift of God and God's blessing to us; and no one yet has been able to produce ANYTHING indicating that faith is a "WHOLLY VOLUNTARY" choice of self.


But of course, all this is just a part of the larger questions: WHO IS THE SAVIOR? If Jesus is - then what is involved in salvation (in the sense of justification, narrow) is Jesus' act, work, doing. If self is - then what is involved in salvation is our stuff (such as self WHOLLY VOLUNTARILY performing the good work of faith, etc., etc., etc.). You can look to the Cross or you can look in the mirror. THAT'S the real debate between most Protestants and Catholics...... this issue is just a subsection of that discussion.



- Josiah
 

MoreCoffee

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What does God's Grace include then in that gift to you? It includes faith so you believe in the forgiveness of sins. Why exclude faith in that verse when it is inclusive? God provides. He gifts us with His Son. He gifts us with His death. He gifts us with his forgiveness. He gifts us with His resurrection. He gifts us with grace so we can turn to Him. God's gifting is unending.

Grace may include faith, that is the subject of this thread. One needs to show that grace includes a gift of faith without which one cannot believe the gospel. Josiah also mentioned that faith is an act of God and that too needs to be shown to be true.
 

Lamb

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Grace may include faith, that is the subject of this thread. One needs to show that grace includes a gift of faith without which one cannot believe the gospel. Josiah also mentioned that faith is an act of God and that too needs to be shown to be true.

It's been shown already.

Can you show now that man CAN in some way, apart from God, come to faith in order to believe the Gospel? I've never been given any biblical scripture as proof.
 

MoreCoffee

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It's been shown already.

Can you show now that man CAN in some way, apart from God, come to faith in order to believe the Gospel? I've never been given any biblical scripture as proof.

I do not think it's been shown. Maybe you can explain how you come to the conclusion that it has?
 

Lamb

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Well, I already have. I've shown you how it's connected to God's working in us for His salvation. It's all God's doing.

Your turn now. I'd like biblical proof, please :)
 

MoreCoffee

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Well, I already have. I've shown you how it's connected to God's working in us for His salvation. It's all God's doing.

Your turn now. I'd like biblical proof, please :)

It's a matter of burden of proof is it not? I have not asserted that faith is or is not a gift from God. Technically everything that any creature has is a gift from God but that is not what this thread is about. Freedom is a gift from God and it may be that the grace given by God is grace given to a free creature who can choose to accept, reject, use, or ignore it. The passages that you and Josiah supplied need further exegesis before one can say that they teach faith is a gift without which no one can believe the gospel.
 

Lamb

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Well the question of the thread asks "Is faith a wholly voluntary act?" and the answer according to scripture is No. Now, do you agree with it?
 

MoreCoffee

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Well the question of the thread asks "Is faith a wholly voluntary act?" and the answer according to scripture is No. Now, do you agree with it?

I am not convinced that the holy scriptures give that answer.
 

MoreCoffee

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The glossary at the back of the CCC says - FAITH: Both a gift of God and a human act by which the believer gives personal adherence to God who invites his response, and freely assents to the whole truth that God has revealed. It is this revelation of God which the Church proposes for our belief, and which we profess in the Creed, celebrate in the sacraments, live by right conduct that fulfills the twofold commandment of charity (as specified in the ten commandments), and respond to in our prayer of faith. Faith is both a theological virtue given by God as grace, and an obligation which flows from the first commandment of God (26, 142, 150, 1814, 2087).

The CCC says -
PART ONE:

THE PROFESSION OF FAITH

SECTION ONE

"I BELIEVE" - "WE BELIEVE"


26 We begin our profession of faith by saying: "I believe" or "We believe". Before expounding the Church's faith, as confessed in the Creed, celebrated in the liturgy and lived in observance of God's commandments and in prayer, we must first ask what "to believe" means. Faith is man's response to God, who reveals himself and gives himself to man, at the same time bringing man a superabundant light as he searches for the ultimate meaning of his life. Thus we shall consider first that search (Chapter One), then the divine Revelation by which God comes to meet man (Chapter Two), and finally the response of faith (Chapter Three).

CHAPTER THREE

MAN'S RESPONSE TO GOD

142 By his Revelation, "the invisible God, from the fullness of his love, addresses men as his friends, and moves among them, in order to invite and receive them into his own company."1 The adequate response to this invitation is faith.

143 By faith, man completely submits his intellect and his will to God.2 With his whole being man gives his assent to God the revealer. Sacred Scripture calls this human response to God, the author of revelation, "the obedience of faith".3
1 DV 2; cf. ⇒ Col 1:15; ⇒ I Tim 1:17; ⇒ Ex 33:11; ⇒ Jn 15:14-15; Bar 3:38 (Vulg.).
2 Cf. DV 5.
3 Cf. ⇒ Rom 1:5; ⇒ 16:26​

II. "I Know Whom I Have Believed"16

To believe in God alone

150 Faith is first of all a personal adherence of man to God. At the same time, and inseparably, it is a free assent to the whole truth that God has revealed. As personal adherence to God and assent to his truth, Christian faith differs from our faith in any human person. It is right and just to entrust oneself wholly to God and to believe absolutely what he says. It would be futile and false to place such faith in a creature.17

To believe in Jesus Christ, the Son of God

151 For a Christian, believing in God cannot be separated from believing in the One he sent, his "beloved Son", in whom the Father is "well pleased"; God tells us to listen to him.18 The Lord himself said to his disciples: "Believe in God, believe also in me."19 We can believe in Jesus Christ because he is himself God, the Word made flesh: "No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known."20 Because he "has seen the Father", Jesus Christ is the only one who knows him and can reveal him.21

To believe in the Holy Spirit

152 One cannot believe in Jesus Christ without sharing in his Spirit. It is the Holy Spirit who reveals to men who Jesus is. For "no one can say "Jesus is Lord", except by the Holy Spirit",22 who "searches everything, even the depths of God. . No one comprehends the thoughts of God, except the Spirit of God."23 Only God knows God completely: we believe in the Holy Spirit because he is God.

The Church never ceases to proclaim her faith in one only God: Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
16 ⇒ 2 Tim 1:12
17 Cf. ⇒ Jer 17:5-6; ⇒ Pss 40:5; ⇒ 146:3-4
18 ⇒ Mk 1:11; cf. ⇒ 9:7
19 ⇒ Jn 14:1
20 ⇒ Jn 1:18.
21 ⇒ Jn 6:46; cf. ⇒ Mt 11:27
22 ⇒ I Cor 12:3
23 ⇒ I Cor 2:10-11.​
 
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Lamb

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We can only plant seeds. It's up to the Holy Spirit to convict and convince. Scripture has been given showing the connection of God's grace, faith and salvation. Man is not his own Savior as Josiah points out which is why faith comes from God, not within us.
 

Lamb

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So even your Church believes it is gift.

The assent of man does not cause salvation. It merely acknowledges the Amen of the truth of the Savior's work.
 

MoreCoffee

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So even your Church believes it is gift.

The assent of man does not cause salvation. It merely acknowledges the Amen of the truth of the Savior's work.

I added some material to my last post. The additions explain what the glossary briefly defines.
 

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The remaining references from the glossary are shown below.

Faith

1814 Faith is the theological virtue by which we believe in God and believe all that he has said and revealed to us, and that Holy Church proposes for our belief, because he is truth itself. By faith "man freely commits his entire self to God."78 For this reason the believer seeks to know and do God's will. "The righteous shall live by faith." Living faith "work(s) through charity."79

1815 The gift of faith remains in one who has not sinned against it.80 But "faith apart from works is dead":81 when it is deprived of hope and love, faith does not fully unite the believer to Christ and does not make him a living member of his Body.

1816 The disciple of Christ must not only keep the faith and live on it, but also profess it, confidently bear witness to it, and spread it: "All however must be prepared to confess Christ before men and to follow him along the way of the Cross, amidst the persecutions which the Church never lacks."82 Service of and witness to the faith are necessary for salvation: "So every one who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven; but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven."83

78 DV 5.
79 ⇒ Rom 1:17; ⇒ Gal 5:6.
80 Cf. Council of Trent (1547): DS 1545.
81 ⇒ Jas 2:26.
82 LG 42; cf. DH 14.
83 ⇒ Mt 10:32-33.

Article 2

GRACE AND JUSTIFICATION


I. Justification

1987 The grace of the Holy Spirit has the power to justify us, that is, to cleanse us from our sins and to communicate to us "the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ" and through Baptism:34

But if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him. For we know that Christ being raised from the dead will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves as dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.35

1988 Through the power of the Holy Spirit we take part in Christ's Passion by dying to sin, and in his Resurrection by being born to a new life; we are members of his Body which is the Church, branches grafted onto the vine which is himself:36

(God) gave himself to us through his Spirit. By the participation of the Spirit, we become communicants in the divine nature.... For this reason, those in whom the Spirit dwells are divinized.37

1989 The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus' proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."38 Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.39

1990 Justification detaches man from sin which contradicts the love of God, and purifies his heart of sin. Justification follows upon God's merciful initiative of offering forgiveness. It reconciles man with God. It frees from the enslavement to sin, and it heals.

1991 Justification is at the same time the acceptance of God's righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ. Righteousness (or "justice") here means the rectitude of divine love. With justification, faith, hope, and charity are poured into our hearts, and obedience to the divine will is granted us.

1992 Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life:40

But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins; it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus.41

1993 Justification establishes cooperation between God's grace and man's freedom. On man's part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent:

When God touches man's heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God's grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God's sight.42

1994 Justification is the most excellent work of God's love made manifest in Christ Jesus and granted by the Holy Spirit. It is the opinion of St. Augustine that "the justification of the wicked is a greater work than the creation of heaven and earth," because "heaven and earth will pass away but the salvation and justification of the elect . . . will not pass away."43 He holds also that the justification of sinners surpasses the creation of the angels in justice, in that it bears witness to a greater mercy.

1995 The Holy Spirit is the master of the interior life. By giving birth to the "inner man,"44 justification entails the sanctification of his whole being:

Just as you once yielded your members to impurity and to greater and greater iniquity, so now yield your members to righteousness for sanctification.... But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the return you get is sanctification and its end, eternal life.45

34 ⇒ Rom 3:22; cf. ⇒ 6:3-4.
35 ⇒ Rom 6:8-11.
36 Cf. ⇒ 1 Cor 12; ⇒ Jn 15:1 4.
37 St. Athanasius, Ep. Serap. 1, 24: PG 26, 585 and 588.
38 ⇒ Mt 4:17.
39 Council of Trent (1547): DS 1528.
40 Cf. Council of Trent (1547): DS 1529.
41 ⇒ Rom 3:21-26.
42 Council of Trent (1547): DS 1525.
43 St. Augustine, In Jo. ev. 72, 3: PL 35, 1823.
44 Cf. ⇒ Rom 7:22; ⇒ Eph 3:16.
45 ⇒ Rom 6:19, 22.
 

Lamb

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I still see though that your denomination believes that faith is a gift :)
 

Josiah

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I still see though that your denomination believes that faith is a gift :)


Some are SO eager to denounce others that they'll do it even they agree with that denomination on the point! Some have this mind set, this heart....... If a Catholic or a Protestant says/believes/teaches something, it's GOTTA be wrong, it's something to ATTACK and mock..... even if they agree with it! Wow. We've got a lot of work to do....



- Josiah
 

MoreCoffee

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Some are SO eager to denounce others that they'll do it even they agree with that denomination on the point! Some have this mind set, this heart....... If a Catholic or a Protestant says/believes/teaches something, it's GOTTA be wrong, it's something to ATTACK and mock..... even if they agree with it! Wow. We've got a lot of work to do....
- Josiah

Josiah, you have completely misread the to and fro between Lämmchen and myself. I like and respect Lämmchen and she does not write anti-catholic propaganda. We disagree on this and that matter but never lose respect one for the other. That does not appear to be so with your posts.
 

MarkFL

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I think that whether faith is said to be a gift that one decides they will accept or is something one seeks out and works to build, either way it is a wholly voluntary and deliberate thing. On matters where there's compelling evidence, acceptance isn't so much a choice but rather a realization. Of course one can choose to deny the evidence, but I am speaking only of those truly interested in truth, even if it contradicts previously held beliefs. But when there is no such compelling evidence, and faith is required, then it is a choice whether to accept or reject.
 

Josiah

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Since it seems Catholics and Protestants (well, the Protestants posting so far in this thread) are in agreement that faith is a gift of God (evidently, MoreCoffee either just wanted me to give him some Scriptures to support his view or had an odd way of saying "I agree").


IMO, it is not implied that because one has something they ERGO made a "WHOLLY VOLUNTARY" choice or decision to receive such. I have big feet. I have blue eyes. I have American citizenship. I have two ears. Indeed, I came to life. None of these a result of my personal, proactive "WHOLLY VOLUNTARY" action/choice/decision. To HAVE does not even imply to choose - much less a "wholly voluntary" choice.


Lutherans do not appoint themselves to theorize (much less Dogmatize) HOW all this "cranks out." Yes - we affirm that God is the giver of salvation (in the sense of narrow justification) because we view Jesus as the Savior (thus Jesus does the sasving) and because we take literally that part of the Creed that says the Holy Spirit is the giver of life (not that each person is of his/her own life). And at MoreCoffee's request, I gave a plethora of Scriptures that certainly suggest that faith is a divine activity, a divine gift (and noted none could produce a Scripture suggesting otherwise). But how does all this WORK on a practical level, how does all this crank out, HOW does God do that? We don't say (insert the favorite Lutheran word in theology: mystery), we are silent because God is silent (and well, we don't KNOW). You can theorize that God CHANGES our will so that we CHOSE it - well, you can THEORIZE much, but Lutherans will tend to stay out of that and simple affirm what Scripture says - being silent where it is silent. There is MUCH in soteriology that we just don't know.... and since God chose to be leave it where He did, Lutherans conclude it might be worth considering for us to do the same. I think a lot of Protestants agree, although some are more open to lively theorizing (while not Dogmatizing such).



- Josiah
 

MoreCoffee

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I do not agree that faith is an act of God in any special sense that others things are not also acts of God.
 
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