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  • Page 6 of 6 FirstFirst ... 456
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    Denomination & Faith Movement Discussions - Thread: Assurance or Arrogance

    1. #51
      Pedrito's Avatar
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      I have a thought to float.

      If one looked carefully at the scripture statements that indicate security, and looked carefully at the scripture statements that indicate that it is indeed possible to fall away with resulting dire consequences, might one find that:
      - The statements that point to assurance state that God will not instigate the rejection of a believer.
      - The statements that point to falling away (the sin unto death) show that the rejection of once-held faith can be instigated by individuals.

      In fact, in I John 5:16-17 believers are expected to identify a brother (or a sister – a fellow believer) who is in that condition of falling away, and specifically not pray for them. That brother or sister has had it – they are doomed – there is no way back.

      ================================================== ============================================

      Once again I point out that the back door escape for “once saved, always saved” advocates when one of “their own” suddenly apostatises, is proclaiming “they were never saved in the first place”. That proclamation is made even though the apostate himself or herself formerly believed that they were surely saved, as did everyone who knew them. Neither that person, nor their Christian brothers and sisters, had any idea before the downward slide started, that it would ever start. They all thought it could never happen. And all would have stated so with conviction.

      Which or course means that no “OS,AS” believer has any assurance at all. No assurance that they are indeed themselves saved. Because they have no idea whether or not one day that same statement – “they were never saved in the first place” – could be applied to them.

      ================================================== ============================================

      (The fact that Scripture also identifies false believers – people who have made false declarations of faith to suit their own nefarious purposes – is a separate issue, and should not be used in an attempt to muddy the water on this particular matter.)


      ================================================== ============================================

      And with respect to this from Post #47:
      Why not read these verses in the context of the full passage, chapters, or full letter?
      Why not back up to Heb.5:12 and start reading forward...then go all the way thru chapter6, and key on vs9, and finish with vss17-20?

      Then you'll see vss 4-6 in context, how it's NOT talking about a SAVED person LOSING their salvation, it doesnt apply to born-again or saved believers at all, and the full passage gives great ASSURANCE of salvation, bc JESUS accomplished it FOR us. Vss17-20.
      And so many passages are like that.


      After reading the broader context as suggested, that context seemed to actually accentuate the dangers of falling away. The writer’s emphasis is on the importance of continued growth in wisdom and knowledge, versus the stagnation which can lead to a dangerous diminution of effective faith. Encouragement to move forward is thus the key.
      Seeking to understand with precision, God's holy and coherent revelation to us.

    2. Likes psalms 91, popsthebuilder liked this post
    3. #52
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      Quote Originally Posted by Pedrito View Post
      [COLOR="#000000"]I have a thought to float.

      If one looked carefully at the scripture statements that indicate security, and looked carefully at the scripture statements that indicate that it is indeed possible to fall away with resulting dire consequences, might one find that:
      - The statements that point to assurance state that God will not instigate the rejection of a believer.
      - The statements that point to falling away (the sin unto death) show that the rejection of once-held faith can be instigated by individuals.
      However, John 10:28-30 says:

      28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
      29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
      30 I and my Father are one.


      Once again I point out that the back door escape for “once saved, always saved” advocates when one of “their own” suddenly apostatises, is proclaiming “they were never saved in the first place”. That proclamation is made even though the apostate himself or herself formerly believed that they were surely saved, as did everyone who knew them.
      That does not in any way prove or show that they ever had saving Faith, though.

    4. #53
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      Quote Originally Posted by Albion View Post
      However, John 10:28-30 says:

      28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
      29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
      30 I and my Father are one.



      That does not in any way prove or show that they ever had saving Faith, though.
      Seems to me that "no man can pluck them away" could be referring to any other than self, or said individual themselves.

      Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk
      Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

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    6. #54
      MennoSota is offline Expert Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by popsthebuilder View Post
      Seems to me that "no man can pluck them away" could be referring to any other than self, or said individual themselves.

      Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk
      Really? The context of John 10 doesn't support your contention.

    7. #55
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      @Albion in Post #52 offered:
      However, John 10:28-30 says:

      28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
      29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
      30 I and my Father are one.
      Well pointed out.

      @popsthebuilder expressed my understanding of the matter well in his Post #53:
      Seems to me that "no man can pluck them away" could be referring to any other than self, or said individual themselves.
      My understanding has been that protection from third party maleficence is an integral part of God’s beneficence towards those that love Him. But Albion has correctly taken me to task for not expressing the idea directly. And I thank him for plugging the gap.

      (The context of John Chapter 10 is clearly that of third party interference. Bypassing other scripture so that first party action can be included, is subject to question. The Greek verb (pluck) pertains only to action originating externally.)

      ================================================== ============================================

      Albion, same Post [[insertion] added for clarity]:
      That does not in any way prove or show that they [once-saved-always-saved people] ever had saving Faith, though.
      Exactly my point. But they were once convinced that they did have that saving faith, as were those around them so convinced. They were all totally convinced. Absolutely convinced. They were convinced beyond all doubt – reasonable and unreasonable. To no avail.

      The uncertainty is therefore constantly there. No once-saved-always-saved person can ever have any assurance that their faith – the faith that they and others are so convinced is so real right now – is the lasting one.

      ================================================== ============================================

      The other perspective of course is expressed thus:

      Matthew 10:22: “And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
      Matthew 24:13: “But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
      Mark 13:13: “And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
      Philippians 3:10-11: “10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
      11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
      ” (Look at the expanded context.)
      Revelation 2:17: “...To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it ."

      That will do me for now.
      Seeking to understand with precision, God's holy and coherent revelation to us.

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    9. #56
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      Quote Originally Posted by Pedrito View Post
      @Albion in Post #52 offered:


      Well pointed out.

      @popsthebuilder expressed my understanding of the matter well in his Post #53:


      My understanding has been that protection from third party maleficence is an integral part of God’s beneficence towards those that love Him. But Albion has correctly taken me to task for not expressing the idea directly. And I thank him for plugging the gap.

      (The context of John Chapter 10 is clearly that of third party interference. Bypassing other scripture so that first party action can be included, is subject to question. The Greek verb (pluck) pertains only to action originating externally.)

      ================================================== ============================================

      Albion, same Post [[insertion] added for clarity]:


      Exactly my point. But they were once convinced that they did have that saving faith, as were those around them so convinced. They were all totally convinced. Absolutely convinced. They were convinced beyond all doubt – reasonable and unreasonable. To no avail.

      The uncertainty is therefore constantly there. No once-saved-always-saved person can ever have any assurance that their faith – the faith that they and others are so convinced is so real right now – is the lasting one.

      ================================================== ============================================

      The other perspective of course is expressed thus:

      Matthew 10:22: “And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
      Matthew 24:13: “But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
      Mark 13:13: “And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
      Philippians 3:10-11: “10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
      11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
      ” (Look at the expanded context.)
      Revelation 2:17: “...To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it ."

      That will do me for now.
      See that's the problem of people saying look at my faith instead of look at my Jesus who forgives me. When you got the difference handled it is an eye widening experience of joy and peace.
      If you want to rile people up then go to a Christian site and give God ALL the glory for your salvation.

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