• Amused
  • Angry
  • Annoyed
  • Awesome
  • Bemused
  • Cool
  • Crazy
  • Crying
  • Depressed
  • Down
  • Embarrassed
  • Enraged
  • Friendly
  • Geeky
  • Grumpy
  • Happy
  • Hungry
  • Innocent
  • Meh
  • Piratey
  • Poorly
  • Sad
  • Secret
  • Shy
  • Sneaky
  • Tired
  • Page 3 of 6 FirstFirst 12345 ... LastLast
    Results 21 to 30 of 56

    Denomination & Faith Movement Discussions - Thread: Assurance or Arrogance

    1. #21
      Snerfle is offline Veteran Member
      Mood:
      Geeky
       
      Join Date
      Feb 2017
      Location
      In a house
      Posts
      1,646
      Country
      United States
      CH Challenge
      0
      CH Cash
      123,904
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      10,023
      Level
      29
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      85.31%
      Rep Power
      204
      YES!!!

      (either that ↑ or youre wrong)

      Btw, what's 'unchallengeable' assurance?
      We have assurance because our God and Saviour Jesus Christ is Faithful and True.
      Trustworthy. Our assurance is in Him. It gets challenged all the time, it doesn't change Him or His Gift.

      also btw ... Whats a MaoriHaka? Sounds like a bad cough with alot of phlegm.

      (And why is the g silent?) (I'll let Imalive answer that one.)
      ~Deliberate ignorance
      is anti-christian~

    2. #22
      popsthebuilder's Avatar
      popsthebuilder is offline Veteran Member
      Single
      Mood:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jun 2015
      Posts
      1,712
      CH Challenge
      3
      CH Cash
      34,080
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      6,261
      Level
      24
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      41.33%
      Rep Power
      141
      Quote Originally Posted by Pedrito View Post
      So once again we see Scriptures that appear to support a particular idea, and Scriptures that appear to challenge that very same idea.

      In this instance, the competing ideas are: unchallengeable assurance, and the ability to fall away.

      And people line up on both sides making faces and performing Maori Hakas at each other.


      - the first 90 seconds will do.


      As usual, the truly Scriptural perspective, the one from God that combines the two perceived irreconcilables into one balanced, coherent whole, is totally overlooked, and not even searched for.

      And that balanced, coherent perspective would probably be rejected by both sides if presented. Just like a peacemaker risks being attacked by both individuals engaged in fisticuffs.

      It is sufficient for Pedrito to point out that both sides lack understanding, and that if individuals will take it upon themselves to discover the truth in this particular instance, those individuals will be blessed for their efforts, even if they do find they end up paying a price.
      The mercy of GOD is great is it not?

      Good post, by the way.

      Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk
      Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

    3. #23
      Imalive's Avatar
      Imalive is offline Veteran Member
      Mood:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Aug 2017
      Posts
      2,315
      Country
      Netherlands
      CH Challenge
      0
      CH Cash
      497,906
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      10,579
      Level
      30
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      53.99%
      Rep Power
      268
      Quote Originally Posted by Pedrito View Post
      So once again we see Scriptures that appear to support a particular idea, and Scriptures that appear to challenge that very same idea.

      In this instance, the competing ideas are: unchallengeable assurance, and the ability to fall away.

      And people line up on both sides making faces and performing Maori Hakas at each other.


      - the first 90 seconds will do.


      As usual, the truly Scriptural perspective, the one from God that combines the two perceived irreconcilables into one balanced, coherent whole, is totally overlooked, and not even searched for.

      And that balanced, coherent perspective would probably be rejected by both sides if presented. Just like a peacemaker risks being attacked by both individuals engaged in fisticuffs.

      It is sufficient for Pedrito to point out that both sides lack understanding, and that if individuals will take it upon themselves to discover the truth in this particular instance, those individuals will be blessed for their efforts, even if they do find they end up paying a price.
      All those seemingly contradictions are just 2 sides of the same coin and ppl make a doctrin of one side.

    4. #24
      Snerfle is offline Veteran Member
      Mood:
      Geeky
       
      Join Date
      Feb 2017
      Location
      In a house
      Posts
      1,646
      Country
      United States
      CH Challenge
      0
      CH Cash
      123,904
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      10,023
      Level
      29
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      85.31%
      Rep Power
      204
      Quote Originally Posted by Imalive View Post
      All those seemingly contradictions are just 2 sides of the same coin and ppl make a doctrin of one side.
      Yes, many times its like that. God is not the author of confusion, but we are limited in our understanding, or sometimes just at different levels. Alot of times we see things as being this OR that, (and many things ARE like that...the light is either On OR Off) But sometimes things that seem like either/or are actually both/and.

      Or not. Lol.
      ~Deliberate ignorance
      is anti-christian~

    5. Likes Imalive liked this post
    6. #25
      Pedrito's Avatar
      Pedrito is online now Clarifier
      Married
      Hyding from Jekyll
       
      Mood:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Aug 2015
      Posts
      801
      Country
      Australia
      CH Challenge
      54
      CH Cash
      4,778
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      4,094
      Level
      20
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      31.33%
      Rep Power
      111
      Post #21 [emphasis added]:
      Btw, what's 'unchallengeable' assurance?
      We have assurance because our God and Saviour Jesus Christ is Faithful and True.
      Trustworthy. Our assurance is in Him. It gets challenged all the time, it doesn't change Him or His Gift.
      “Unchallengeable assurance” is simply another way of expressing “once saved, always saved”, or “pray the sinner’s prayer, and you’re OK no matter what”.

      Yet sometimes we see people who openly and deliberately apostatize.

      They showed all the signs of regenerate life; they were convinced of themselves and convinced everyone else that they were “saved”; they were active in Christian work; and might even have sacrificed their physical and financial well being by serving as foreign missionaries for a time.

      Then something happened. They apoststized. They turned their back on God and everything they once held dear.

      ================================================== ============================================

      What is said of them? How is the doctrine of “once saved, always saved” itself saved in that not-uncommon situation?

      Easy. “They were never really saved in the first place”. That is what is said of them. (Despite the fact that they themselves and everyone else being formerly convinced that they were saved.)

      ================================================== ============================================

      The holders of the “once saved, always saved” belief don’t seem to realise that the “they were never really saved in the first place” explanation actually means that they themselves have no assurance.

      Because the profession of the remaining “saved” people, and its outworking, could well be less impressive, less deeply felt, and less dedicated, than those of the people classed as “never really saved”.

      The “once saved, always saved” proclaimers have no idea what might happen to them in the future to shake their faith. And if something terrible, something totally demoralising, does happen, then their current faith-mates will turn on them as well.

      ================================================== ============================================

      The “once saved, always saved” doctrine is thus internally inconsistent. And not only that, people who proclaim that doctrine are forced to ignore Scriptures which are damaging to that important (to them) belief – Scriptures such as those presented in Pedrito's first post (Post #13).
      Last edited by Pedrito; 11-30-2017 at 03:38 PM. Reason: "Post #1" changed to "Pedrito's first post (Post #13)". (Thank you Snerfle.)
      Seeking to understand with precision, God's holy and coherent revelation to us.

    7. #26
      Snerfle is offline Veteran Member
      Mood:
      Geeky
       
      Join Date
      Feb 2017
      Location
      In a house
      Posts
      1,646
      Country
      United States
      CH Challenge
      0
      CH Cash
      123,904
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      10,023
      Level
      29
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      85.31%
      Rep Power
      204
      Quote Originally Posted by Pedrito View Post
      Post #21 [emphasis added]:


      “Unchallengeable assurance” is simply another way of expressing “once saved, always saved”, or “pray the sinner’s prayer, and you’re OK no matter what”.

      Yet sometimes we see people who openly and deliberately apostatize.

      They showed all the signs of regenerate life; they were convinced of themselves and convinced everyone else that they were “saved”; they were active in Christian work; and might even have sacrificed their physical and financial well being by serving as foreign missionaries for a time.

      Then something happened. They apoststized. They turned their back on God and everything they once held dear.

      ================================================== ============================================

      What is said of them? How is the doctrine of “once saved, always saved” itself saved in that not-uncommon situation?

      Easy. “They were never really saved in the first place”. That is what is said of them. (Despite the fact that they themselves and everyone else being formerly convinced that they were saved.)

      ================================================== ============================================

      The holders of the “once saved, always saved” belief don’t seem to realise that the “they were never really saved in the first place” explanation actually means that they themselves have no assurance.

      Because the profession of the remaining “saved” people, and its outworking, could well be less impressive, less deeply felt, and less dedicated, than those of the people classed as “never really saved”.

      The “once saved, always saved” proclaimers have no idea what might happen to them in the future to shake their faith. And if something terrible, something totally demoralising, does happen, then their current faith-mates will turn on them as well.

      ================================================== ============================================

      The “once saved, always saved” doctrine is thus internally inconsistent. And not only that, people who proclaim that doctrine are forced to ignore Scriptures which are damaging to that important (to them) belief – Scriptures such as those presented in Post #1.
      Post#1?
      The OP?
      I checked, and Im going to have to assume you meant post#13, and apologize if Im incorrect about that. #13 is where I see a list of scriptures that MIGHT SEEM to imply a person who is saved is not always saved, but can somehow 'lose' their salvation or have it revoked?

      But its more examples of taking chopped portions of passages out of context and attaching them to each other to bolster a point, or at least imply one.
      The 3 verses from Hebrews6 are starting to seem like a broken record.
      The popular new passage to try to bring fear and doubt to believers.

      Yet I rarely see the whole chapter quoted, and in context, and actually, verse1 starts 'Therefore' ... (whenever we see 'therefore' we should see what its there for.) Its an indication that what preceeds it is important to read in order to put what follows into context and bring understanding. Maybe back up to 5:12 and read from there?

      And why dont ppl read the rest of the chapter, especially the last 4 beautiful verses.
      Verse19 is the answer to your question, 'what if something happens to shake a believers faith?' Jesus is The Rock of our salvation on which we stand, and the Rock of Ages in whom we hide...Our Anchor holds within the veil.

      (One side Q ... These ppl you said were once saved, but then turned their back on God.....do we know the final outcome of all these ppl? Did they all die rejecting Jesus? Did any return (or come truly for the first time) to Him before drawing their last breath?
      Perhaps some were saved, some not?)
      ~Deliberate ignorance
      is anti-christian~

    8. #27
      Imalive's Avatar
      Imalive is offline Veteran Member
      Mood:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Aug 2017
      Posts
      2,315
      Country
      Netherlands
      CH Challenge
      0
      CH Cash
      497,906
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      10,579
      Level
      30
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      53.99%
      Rep Power
      268
      Quote Originally Posted by Pedrito View Post
      Post #21 [emphasis added]:


      “Unchallengeable assurance” is simply another way of expressing “once saved, always saved”, or “pray the sinner’s prayer, and you’re OK no matter what”.

      Yet sometimes we see people who openly and deliberately apostatize.

      They showed all the signs of regenerate life; they were convinced of themselves and convinced everyone else that they were “saved”; they were active in Christian work; and might even have sacrificed their physical and financial well being by serving as foreign missionaries for a time.

      Then something happened. They apoststized. They turned their back on God and everything they once held dear.

      ================================================== ============================================

      What is said of them? How is the doctrine of “once saved, always saved” itself saved in that not-uncommon situation?

      Easy. “They were never really saved in the first place”. That is what is said of them. (Despite the fact that they themselves and everyone else being formerly convinced that they were saved.)

      ================================================== ============================================

      The holders of the “once saved, always saved” belief don’t seem to realise that the “they were never really saved in the first place” explanation actually means that they themselves have no assurance.

      Because the profession of the remaining “saved” people, and its outworking, could well be less impressive, less deeply felt, and less dedicated, than those of the people classed as “never really saved”.

      The “once saved, always saved” proclaimers have no idea what might happen to them in the future to shake their faith. And if something terrible, something totally demoralising, does happen, then their current faith-mates will turn on them as well.

      ================================================== ============================================

      The “once saved, always saved” doctrine is thus internally inconsistent. And not only that, people who proclaim that doctrine are forced to ignore Scriptures which are damaging to that important (to them) belief – Scriptures such as those presented in Pedrito's first post (Post #13).
      Paul said that God would keep them and that they were elected because of the fruit he saw and still he told em to work out their salvation. You are secure if you simply abide in Him and follow Him and check yourself if you're in the faith and not throw stuff aside that you don't like in the Bible. He says don't be mislead. John says if you hate your brother you're in darkness. Ppl get mislead if they don't forgive or ignore warnings cause they're 'saved by grace, fruit or works or picking up your cross and following Him don't matter'.

    9. Likes psalms 91 liked this post
    10. #28
      MoreCoffee's Avatar
      MoreCoffee is online now Gold Member
      Fading awa...
       
      Mood:
      Secret
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2015
      Posts
      16,597
      Country
      Vatican
      CH Challenge
      695
      CH Cash
      22,446
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      44,273
      Level
      54
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      56.11%
      Rep Power
      686
      Assurance that lords it over others is arrogance.

      When a chap says "I have pity on you because your religion is rubbish" that's arrogance.

      When a chap has heard that you are a Christian and decides to publicly pray that you be converted and "saved" that is arrogance.

      When a chap is so sure that they are saved that they are free to be a total jerk that is arrogance.
      Saint Jude, author of the new testament letter.

      He is the patron of impossible causes because the scriptural Letter of St. Jude, which he authored, urges Christians to persevere in difficult times.

      Hidden Content

    11. Likes popsthebuilder, ImaginaryDay2 liked this post
    12. #29
      MoreCoffee's Avatar
      MoreCoffee is online now Gold Member
      Fading awa...
       
      Mood:
      Secret
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2015
      Posts
      16,597
      Country
      Vatican
      CH Challenge
      695
      CH Cash
      22,446
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      44,273
      Level
      54
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      56.11%
      Rep Power
      686
      James teaches Christians to avoid presumption

      James 2:14-26

      Faith Without Works Is Dead

      14 My brothers, what benefit is there if someone claims to have faith, but he does not have works? How would faith be able to save him? 15 So if a brother or sister is naked and daily in need of food, 16 and if anyone of you were to say to them: "Go in peace, keep warm and nourished," and yet not give them the things that are necessary for the body, of what benefit is this? 17 Thus even faith, if it does not have works, is dead, in and of itself. 18 Now someone may say: "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without works! But I will show you my faith by means of works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. But the demons also believe, and they tremble greatly. 20 So then, are you willing to understand, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not our father Abraham justified by means of works, by offering his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was cooperating with his works, and that by means of works faith was brought to fulfillment? 23 And so the Scripture was fulfilled which says: "Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him unto justice." And so he was called the friend of God. 24 Do you see that a man is justified by means of works, and not by faith alone? 25 Similarly also, Rahab, the harlot, was she not justified by works, by receiving the messengers and sending them out through another way? 26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

      And I like to read First Peter which teaches holiness in life.

      1 Peter 1:13-25

      Called to Be Holy

      13 For this reason, gird the waist of your mind, be sober, and hope perfectly in the grace that is offered to you in the revelation of Jesus Christ. 14 Be like sons of obedience, not conforming to the desires of your former ignorance, 15 but in accord with him who has called you: the Holy One. And in every behavior, you yourself must be holy, 16 for it is written: "You shall be holy, for I am Holy." 17 And if you invoke as Father him who, without showing favoritism to persons, judges according to each one"s work, then act in fear during the time of your sojourning here. 18 For you know that it was not with corruptible gold or silver that you were redeemed away from your useless behavior in the traditions of your fathers, 19 but it was with the precious blood of Christ, an immaculate and undefiled lamb, 20 foreknown, certainly, before the foundation of the world, and made manifest in these latter times for your sake. 21 Through him, you have been faithful to God, who raised him up from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope would be in God. 22 So chastise your souls with the obedience of charity, in fraternal love, and love one another from a simple heart, attentively. 23 For you have been born again, not from corruptible seed, but from what is incorruptible, from the Word of God, living and remaining for all eternity. 24 For all flesh is like the grass and all its glory is like the flower of the grass. The grass withers and its flower falls away. 25 But the Word of the Lord endures for eternity. And this is the Word that has been evangelized to you.
      Saint Jude, author of the new testament letter.

      He is the patron of impossible causes because the scriptural Letter of St. Jude, which he authored, urges Christians to persevere in difficult times.

      Hidden Content

    13. Likes ImaginaryDay2 liked this post
    14. #30
      MoreCoffee's Avatar
      MoreCoffee is online now Gold Member
      Fading awa...
       
      Mood:
      Secret
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2015
      Posts
      16,597
      Country
      Vatican
      CH Challenge
      695
      CH Cash
      22,446
      Post Thanks / Like
      CH Cash
      (0 Banked)
      vBActivity - Stats
      Points
      44,273
      Level
      54
      vBActivity - Bars
      Lv. Percent
      56.11%
      Rep Power
      686
      Quote Originally Posted by Snerfle View Post
      ... you say your a christian? Lots of ppl say that...RomanCatholics, JW's, Mormons, Osteens Obamas and Oprahs.
      ...
      Lots of people are Christians even when they do not fit another's expectations because people come in different states of life with different callings and different gifts from God but they are all baptised in one Spirit; it is like a body which is not one part, but many and God has placed the parts, each one of them, in the body, just as it has pleased him yet there is one body with one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in us all.
      Saint Jude, author of the new testament letter.

      He is the patron of impossible causes because the scriptural Letter of St. Jude, which he authored, urges Christians to persevere in difficult times.

      Hidden Content

    15. Likes ImaginaryDay2 liked this post

    Bookmarks

    Posting Permissions

    • You may not post new threads
    • You may not post replies
    • You may not post attachments
    • You may not edit your posts
    •