Assurance or Arrogance

user1234

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 2, 2017
Messages
1,654
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Other Church
Marital Status
Separated
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
YES!!!

(either that ↑ or youre wrong) :disgonbegood:

Btw, what's 'unchallengeable' assurance?
We have assurance because our God and Saviour Jesus Christ is Faithful and True.
Trustworthy. Our assurance is in Him. It gets challenged all the time, it doesn't change Him or His Gift.

also btw ... Whats a MaoriHaka? Sounds like a bad cough with alot of phlegm.

(And why is the g silent?) (I'll let Imalive answer that one.)
 

popsthebuilder

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 17, 2015
Messages
1,850
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Marital Status
Single
So once again we see Scriptures that appear to support a particular idea, and Scriptures that appear to challenge that very same idea.

In this instance, the competing ideas are: unchallengeable assurance, and the ability to fall away.

And people line up on both sides making faces and performing Maori Hakas at each other.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-W9xgxsy2I - the first 90 seconds will do.


As usual, the truly Scriptural perspective, the one from God that combines the two perceived irreconcilables into one balanced, coherent whole, is totally overlooked, and not even searched for.

And that balanced, coherent perspective would probably be rejected by both sides if presented. Just like a peacemaker risks being attacked by both individuals engaged in fisticuffs.

It is sufficient for Pedrito to point out that both sides lack understanding, and that if individuals will take it upon themselves to discover the truth in this particular instance, those individuals will be blessed for their efforts, even if they do find they end up paying a price.
The mercy of GOD is great is it not?

Good post, by the way.

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk
 

Imalive

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 3, 2017
Messages
2,315
Gender
Female
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
So once again we see Scriptures that appear to support a particular idea, and Scriptures that appear to challenge that very same idea.

In this instance, the competing ideas are: unchallengeable assurance, and the ability to fall away.

And people line up on both sides making faces and performing Maori Hakas at each other.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-W9xgxsy2I - the first 90 seconds will do.


As usual, the truly Scriptural perspective, the one from God that combines the two perceived irreconcilables into one balanced, coherent whole, is totally overlooked, and not even searched for.

And that balanced, coherent perspective would probably be rejected by both sides if presented. Just like a peacemaker risks being attacked by both individuals engaged in fisticuffs.

It is sufficient for Pedrito to point out that both sides lack understanding, and that if individuals will take it upon themselves to discover the truth in this particular instance, those individuals will be blessed for their efforts, even if they do find they end up paying a price.

All those seemingly contradictions are just 2 sides of the same coin and ppl make a doctrin of one side.
 

user1234

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 2, 2017
Messages
1,654
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Other Church
Marital Status
Separated
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
All those seemingly contradictions are just 2 sides of the same coin and ppl make a doctrin of one side.
Yes, many times its like that. God is not the author of confusion, but we are limited in our understanding, or sometimes just at different levels. Alot of times we see things as being this OR that, (and many things ARE like that...the light is either On OR Off) But sometimes things that seem like either/or are actually both/and.

Or not. Lol.
 

Pedrito

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 21, 2015
Messages
1,032
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Post #21 [emphasis added]:
Btw, what's 'unchallengeable' assurance?
We have assurance because our God and Saviour Jesus Christ is Faithful and True.
Trustworthy. Our assurance is in Him. It gets challenged all the time, it doesn't change Him or His Gift.

“Unchallengeable assurance” is simply another way of expressing “once saved, always saved”, or “pray the sinner’s prayer, and you’re OK no matter what”.

Yet sometimes we see people who openly and deliberately apostatize.

They showed all the signs of regenerate life; they were convinced of themselves and convinced everyone else that they were “saved”; they were active in Christian work; and might even have sacrificed their physical and financial well being by serving as foreign missionaries for a time.

Then something happened. They apoststized. They turned their back on God and everything they once held dear.

==============================================================================================

What is said of them? How is the doctrine of “once saved, always saved” itself saved in that not-uncommon situation?

Easy. “They were never really saved in the first place”. That is what is said of them. (Despite the fact that they themselves and everyone else being formerly convinced that they were saved.)

==============================================================================================

The holders of the “once saved, always saved” belief don’t seem to realise that the “they were never really saved in the first place” explanation actually means that they themselves have no assurance.

Because the profession of the remaining “saved” people, and its outworking, could well be less impressive, less deeply felt, and less dedicated, than those of the people classed as “never really saved”.

The “once saved, always saved” proclaimers have no idea what might happen to them in the future to shake their faith. And if something terrible, something totally demoralising, does happen, then their current faith-mates will turn on them as well.

==============================================================================================

The “once saved, always saved” doctrine is thus internally inconsistent. And not only that, people who proclaim that doctrine are forced to ignore Scriptures which are damaging to that important (to them) belief – Scriptures such as those presented in Pedrito's first post (Post #13).
 
Last edited:

user1234

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 2, 2017
Messages
1,654
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Other Church
Marital Status
Separated
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Post #21 [emphasis added]:


“Unchallengeable assurance” is simply another way of expressing “once saved, always saved”, or “pray the sinner’s prayer, and you’re OK no matter what”.

Yet sometimes we see people who openly and deliberately apostatize.

They showed all the signs of regenerate life; they were convinced of themselves and convinced everyone else that they were “saved”; they were active in Christian work; and might even have sacrificed their physical and financial well being by serving as foreign missionaries for a time.

Then something happened. They apoststized. They turned their back on God and everything they once held dear.

==============================================================================================

What is said of them? How is the doctrine of “once saved, always saved” itself saved in that not-uncommon situation?

Easy. “They were never really saved in the first place”. That is what is said of them. (Despite the fact that they themselves and everyone else being formerly convinced that they were saved.)

==============================================================================================

The holders of the “once saved, always saved” belief don’t seem to realise that the “they were never really saved in the first place” explanation actually means that they themselves have no assurance.

Because the profession of the remaining “saved” people, and its outworking, could well be less impressive, less deeply felt, and less dedicated, than those of the people classed as “never really saved”.

The “once saved, always saved” proclaimers have no idea what might happen to them in the future to shake their faith. And if something terrible, something totally demoralising, does happen, then their current faith-mates will turn on them as well.

==============================================================================================

The “once saved, always saved” doctrine is thus internally inconsistent. And not only that, people who proclaim that doctrine are forced to ignore Scriptures which are damaging to that important (to them) belief – Scriptures such as those presented in Post #1.
Post#1?
The OP?
I checked, and Im going to have to assume you meant post#13, and apologize if Im incorrect about that. #13 is where I see a list of scriptures that MIGHT SEEM to imply a person who is saved is not always saved, but can somehow 'lose' their salvation or have it revoked?

But its more examples of taking chopped portions of passages out of context and attaching them to each other to bolster a point, or at least imply one.
The 3 verses from Hebrews6 are starting to seem like a broken record.
The popular new passage to try to bring fear and doubt to believers.

Yet I rarely see the whole chapter quoted, and in context, and actually, verse1 starts 'Therefore' ... (whenever we see 'therefore' we should see what its there for.) Its an indication that what preceeds it is important to read in order to put what follows into context and bring understanding. Maybe back up to 5:12 and read from there?

And why dont ppl read the rest of the chapter, especially the last 4 beautiful verses.
Verse19 is the answer to your question, 'what if something happens to shake a believers faith?' Jesus is The Rock of our salvation on which we stand, and the Rock of Ages in whom we hide...Our Anchor holds within the veil.

(One side Q ... These ppl you said were once saved, but then turned their back on God.....do we know the final outcome of all these ppl? Did they all die rejecting Jesus? Did any return (or come truly for the first time) to Him before drawing their last breath?
Perhaps some were saved, some not?)
 

Imalive

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 3, 2017
Messages
2,315
Gender
Female
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
Post #21 [emphasis added]:


“Unchallengeable assurance” is simply another way of expressing “once saved, always saved”, or “pray the sinner’s prayer, and you’re OK no matter what”.

Yet sometimes we see people who openly and deliberately apostatize.

They showed all the signs of regenerate life; they were convinced of themselves and convinced everyone else that they were “saved”; they were active in Christian work; and might even have sacrificed their physical and financial well being by serving as foreign missionaries for a time.

Then something happened. They apoststized. They turned their back on God and everything they once held dear.

==============================================================================================

What is said of them? How is the doctrine of “once saved, always saved” itself saved in that not-uncommon situation?

Easy. “They were never really saved in the first place”. That is what is said of them. (Despite the fact that they themselves and everyone else being formerly convinced that they were saved.)

==============================================================================================

The holders of the “once saved, always saved” belief don’t seem to realise that the “they were never really saved in the first place” explanation actually means that they themselves have no assurance.

Because the profession of the remaining “saved” people, and its outworking, could well be less impressive, less deeply felt, and less dedicated, than those of the people classed as “never really saved”.

The “once saved, always saved” proclaimers have no idea what might happen to them in the future to shake their faith. And if something terrible, something totally demoralising, does happen, then their current faith-mates will turn on them as well.

==============================================================================================

The “once saved, always saved” doctrine is thus internally inconsistent. And not only that, people who proclaim that doctrine are forced to ignore Scriptures which are damaging to that important (to them) belief – Scriptures such as those presented in Pedrito's first post (Post #13).

Paul said that God would keep them and that they were elected because of the fruit he saw and still he told em to work out their salvation. You are secure if you simply abide in Him and follow Him and check yourself if you're in the faith and not throw stuff aside that you don't like in the Bible. He says don't be mislead. John says if you hate your brother you're in darkness. Ppl get mislead if they don't forgive or ignore warnings cause they're 'saved by grace, fruit or works or picking up your cross and following Him don't matter'.
 

MoreCoffee

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
19,115
Location
Western Australia
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Catholic
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Single
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Assurance that lords it over others is arrogance.

When a chap says "I have pity on you because your religion is rubbish" that's arrogance.

When a chap has heard that you are a Christian and decides to publicly pray that you be converted and "saved" that is arrogance.

When a chap is so sure that they are saved that they are free to be a total jerk that is arrogance.
 

MoreCoffee

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
19,115
Location
Western Australia
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Catholic
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Single
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
James teaches Christians to avoid presumption

James 2:14-26

Faith Without Works Is Dead

14 My brothers, what benefit is there if someone claims to have faith, but he does not have works? How would faith be able to save him? 15 So if a brother or sister is naked and daily in need of food, 16 and if anyone of you were to say to them: "Go in peace, keep warm and nourished," and yet not give them the things that are necessary for the body, of what benefit is this? 17 Thus even faith, if it does not have works, is dead, in and of itself. 18 Now someone may say: "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without works! But I will show you my faith by means of works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. But the demons also believe, and they tremble greatly. 20 So then, are you willing to understand, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not our father Abraham justified by means of works, by offering his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was cooperating with his works, and that by means of works faith was brought to fulfillment? 23 And so the Scripture was fulfilled which says: "Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him unto justice." And so he was called the friend of God. 24 Do you see that a man is justified by means of works, and not by faith alone? 25 Similarly also, Rahab, the harlot, was she not justified by works, by receiving the messengers and sending them out through another way? 26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.​

And I like to read First Peter which teaches holiness in life.

1 Peter 1:13-25

Called to Be Holy

13 For this reason, gird the waist of your mind, be sober, and hope perfectly in the grace that is offered to you in the revelation of Jesus Christ. 14 Be like sons of obedience, not conforming to the desires of your former ignorance, 15 but in accord with him who has called you: the Holy One. And in every behavior, you yourself must be holy, 16 for it is written: "You shall be holy, for I am Holy." 17 And if you invoke as Father him who, without showing favoritism to persons, judges according to each one"s work, then act in fear during the time of your sojourning here. 18 For you know that it was not with corruptible gold or silver that you were redeemed away from your useless behavior in the traditions of your fathers, 19 but it was with the precious blood of Christ, an immaculate and undefiled lamb, 20 foreknown, certainly, before the foundation of the world, and made manifest in these latter times for your sake. 21 Through him, you have been faithful to God, who raised him up from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope would be in God. 22 So chastise your souls with the obedience of charity, in fraternal love, and love one another from a simple heart, attentively. 23 For you have been born again, not from corruptible seed, but from what is incorruptible, from the Word of God, living and remaining for all eternity. 24 For all flesh is like the grass and all its glory is like the flower of the grass. The grass withers and its flower falls away. 25 But the Word of the Lord endures for eternity. And this is the Word that has been evangelized to you.​
 

MoreCoffee

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
19,115
Location
Western Australia
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Catholic
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Single
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
... you say your a christian? Lots of ppl say that...RomanCatholics, JW's, Mormons, Osteens Obamas and Oprahs.
...

Lots of people are Christians even when they do not fit another's expectations because people come in different states of life with different callings and different gifts from God but they are all baptised in one Spirit; it is like a body which is not one part, but many and God has placed the parts, each one of them, in the body, just as it has pleased him yet there is one body with one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in us all.
 

user1234

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 2, 2017
Messages
1,654
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Other Church
Marital Status
Separated
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Lots of people are Christians even when they do not fit another's expectations because people come in different states of life with different callings and different gifts from God but they are all baptised in one Spirit; it is like a body which is not one part, but many and God has placed the parts, each one of them, in the body, just as it has pleased him yet there is one body with one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in us all.
I underlined those last 4 words. WHO is the US? Just anybody? Anyone who says they're a christian? JWs? Mormons? NewAgers? RomanCatholics? SDAs? Who is the us?

I notice you like to go to this one verse from Ephesians as a proof text for a number of things,..... Baby baptisms, water-baptism in general, universalism, christian 'membership', ... but the more you keep pulling a verse or a few out of context, the weaker your arguements are becoming.
The same verse you use to claim for the 'US' you think it refers to, would be used by JWs to claim a different 'US', which would be different from the Mormon 'US', etc.

Much better to read the letter in context to determine who GOD says and Paul says is the 'US'. And you point to 1stPeter ... A great letter that also shows not only being born again, but confirms osas. Are you now saying you are a born-again christian? (a bit of an oxymoron, I know) and that you believe in osas, too?
If so...praise the Lord, I will rejoice with you if it's true...it would be a great answer to prayer, He is SUCH a good and loving God and Saviour!
 

Imalive

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 3, 2017
Messages
2,315
Gender
Female
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
I say but so, I say but nothing.
Ik zeg maar zo, ik zeg maar niks.
 
Last edited:

MoreCoffee

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
19,115
Location
Western Australia
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Catholic
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Single
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Believe in osas. Please. Believe in Jesus. Osas doesnt save anybody. Jesus saves.

Quite true. I am not sure how one can believe in OSAS. It makes no sense especially when it is suggested that not believing in OSAS means you're going to hell or something.
 

popsthebuilder

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 17, 2015
Messages
1,850
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Marital Status
Single
1 John 5: 1. Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. 2. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 3. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. 4. For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. 5. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk
 

popsthebuilder

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 17, 2015
Messages
1,850
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Romans 4: 1. What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2. For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, 7. Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. 9. Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. 10. How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 11. And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 12. And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised. 13. For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14. For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: 15. Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. 16. Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, 17.before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. 18. Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations; according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be. 19. And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb: 20. He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; 21. And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. 22. And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. 23. Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; 24. But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; 25. Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification. 5: 1. Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: 2. By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. 3. And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; 4. And patience, experience; and experience, hope: 5. And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us. 6. For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 7. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. 8. But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 10. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. 11. And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement. 12. Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Romans 5: 18. Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Romans 6: 1. What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2. God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3. Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4. Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6. Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7. For he that is dead is freed from sin. 8. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: 9. Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. 10. For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 11. Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. 12. Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. 13. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. 14. For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. 15. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. 16. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? 17. But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 18. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. 19. I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. 20. For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. 21. What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. 22. But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. 23. For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk
 

NewCreation435

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
4,914
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
There is a difference in having the assurance in faith of your beliefs and being arrogant about your beliefs.

I have a couple of friends who absolutely hate it when Christians insist that their beliefs are correct. I've gently told them that of course they believe their beliefs are correct...otherwise they wouldn't believe in them ;)

Arrogance comes into play when people try to be condescending in giving their opinions. It's okay to state what you believe, but you don't have to knock down your neighbor in the process.

I think there is also an openness to hearing someone out that comes with not being arrogant. Being willing to consider another point of view and the possibility that you don't truly know everything.
 

MennoSota

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 24, 2017
Messages
7,102
Age
53
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Married
I think there is also an openness to hearing someone out that comes with not being arrogant. Being willing to consider another point of view and the possibility that you don't truly know everything.

I suppose it depends. I can hear a person out and determine if their reasoning is biblically based or manufactured from flawed reasoning. But once the flawed reasoning is exposed, why continue to entertain an error?
 

Pedrito

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 21, 2015
Messages
1,032
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Post #26 [emphasis added]:
(One side Q ... These ppl you said were once saved, but then turned their back on God.....do we know the final outcome of all these ppl? Did they all die rejecting Jesus? Did any return (or come truly for the first time) to Him before drawing their last breath?
Perhaps some were saved, some not?)

Did Pedrito say that? Did Pedrito say they were once saved?

Pedrito did not.

Pedrito offered [emphasis added]:
“Unchallengeable assurance” is simply another way of expressing “once saved, always saved”, or “pray the sinner’s prayer, and you’re OK no matter what”.

Yet sometimes we see people who openly and deliberately apostatize.

They showed all the signs of regenerate life; they were convinced of themselves and convinced everyone else that they were “saved”; they were active in Christian work; and might even have sacrificed their physical and financial well being by serving as foreign missionaries for a time.

Then something happened. They apostatized. They turned their back on God and everything they once held dear.


Pedrito then pointed out that the “Once Saved, Always Saved” (OSAS) people say of such people that they were never actually “saved” in the first place. Even though they once said they were "saved". The OSAS people say that, not Pedrito.

==============================================================================================

On that basis it was further pointed out that the demonstration of most “saved” people’s faith does not extend to the depths and breadths (commitment) of those dedicated ones of whom it is said in retrospect were never “saved” in the first place. And that therefore, no OSAS person has any assurance of salvation, because they can never be sure that they are really saved, no matter how self-convinced they seem to be, and how convinced others are, at any particular time.

The matter is simple. The OSAS perspective is internally inconsistent.

And it is forced to ignore or explain away important Scripture.
 

psalms 91

Well-known member
Moderator
Valued Contributor
Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 22, 2015
Messages
15,205
Age
75
Location
Pa
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Charismatic
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Post #26 [emphasis added]:


Did Pedrito say that? Did Pedrito say they were once saved?

Pedrito did not.

Pedrito offered [emphasis added]:
“Unchallengeable assurance” is simply another way of expressing “once saved, always saved”, or “pray the sinner’s prayer, and you’re OK no matter what”.

Yet sometimes we see people who openly and deliberately apostatize.

They showed all the signs of regenerate life; they were convinced of themselves and convinced everyone else that they were “saved”; they were active in Christian work; and might even have sacrificed their physical and financial well being by serving as foreign missionaries for a time.

Then something happened. They apostatized. They turned their back on God and everything they once held dear.


Pedrito then pointed out that the “Once Saved, Always Saved” (OSAS) people say of such people that they were never actually “saved” in the first place. Even though they once said they were "saved". The OSAS people say that, not Pedrito.

==============================================================================================

On that basis it was further pointed out that the demonstration of most “saved” people’s faith does not extend to the depths and breadths (commitment) of those dedicated ones of whom it is said in retrospect were never “saved” in the first place. And that therefore, no OSAS person has any assurance of salvation, because they can never be sure that they are really saved, no matter how self-convinced they seem to be, and how convinced others are, at any particular time.

The matter is simple. The OSAS perspective is internally inconsistent.

And it is forced to ignore or explain away important Scripture.
Absolutely true OSAS is a lie that satan wants people to believe all the way to hell
 

Andrew

Matt 18:15
Joined
Aug 25, 2017
Messages
6,645
Age
39
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Christian
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Single
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Absolutely true OSAS is a lie that satan wants people to believe all the way to hell
Wait until snerfle reads that lol you are about to be lectured.
My church constantly preaches on losing salvation because deceit is out there, temptation is out there, the devil waits for us just outside the church doors. They (the preachers) can come off as boastful but they still admit to being a sinner, we are more wicked than we think and no sir, we dont want "fair", God forgives us but OSAS for the most part is a thieving away to do what you want making the teachings of no effect, void vain and omitted and off they go siding with the devil.
Saying OSAS might as well be the fulfillment of the whole bible, but its not, Jesus Christ is the fulfillment.

Sent from my LGLS755 using Tapatalk
 
Top Bottom