Justification: By OUR works or CHRIST'S works?

Josiah · Mar 31, 2016

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SoRx5eB7h0A

View this 4 minute video, directed specifically to the LDS but equally applying to all who think justification (narrow) is up to us (in whole or in part)

The LDS view (do your BEST and God will then overlook the rest) is actually the Muslim view, but we often see it even more clearly and boldly among Christians. And the Jewish view of "God makes justification POSSIBLE but it's up to YOU do actually achieve it" (what I was taught in my Catholic years) is just a "spin" on the same basic premise: justification is by what WE do, NOT Christ.

Answer this: WHO is the Savior?

IF you answer "Jesus" then Jesus is the Savior. Not you - not a bit, not at all, not now, not ever, not in any way or shape or form or manner. Salvation is entirely, wholly wrapped up in Jesus. Alone. It's entirely HIS work. HIS heart. HIS love. HIS mercy. HIS gift. HIS blessing. His life, His death, His resurrection. His Cross, His blood, His sacrifice. His righteousness, His obedience, His holiness. Not you. Not yours. You may have some other role in some other matter (Christian living, for example), but not this. The "job" of Savior belongs to Jesus. Not you.

IF you answer "ME!" then you are the Savior. Not Jesus. Not a bit, not at all. Not now, not ever. Not in any way, shape or form or manner. Salvation is all wrapped up in YOU. YOUR works. YOUR will. YOUR love. YOUR efforts. YOUR merits. YOUR obedience. YOUR righteousness. YOUR holiness. YOUR sacrifice. Not Jesus. Not Jesus'. Jesus may have some other role in some other matter, just not this one. The Savior is you.

Which is it? If you give the Christian answer, a LOT of Christianity falls into place.

Thank you.

Pax

- Josiah

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Lamb · Apr 1, 2016

Then there are those who say that Jesus' death presents us with this new gift so that WE can now obey that Law and achieve salvation...but again, that kicks Jesus' redemption to the curb and makes man the savior which isn't good news at all.

Stravinsk · Apr 1, 2016

Josiah said:
.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SoRx5eB7h0A

View this 4 minute video, directed specifically to the LDS but equally applying to all who think justification (narrow) is up to us (in whole or in part)

The LDS view (do your BEST and God will then overlook the rest) is actually the Muslim view, but we often see it even more clearly and boldly among Christians. And the Jewish view of "God makes justification POSSIBLE but it's up to YOU do actually achieve it" (what I was taught in my Catholic years) is just a "spin" on the same basic premise: justification is by what WE do, NOT Christ.

Answer this: WHO is the Savior?

IF you answer "Jesus" then Jesus is the Savior. Not you - not a bit, not at all, not now, not ever, not in any way or shape or form or manner. Salvation is entirely, wholly wrapped up in Jesus. Alone. It's entirely HIS work. HIS heart. HIS love. HIS mercy. HIS gift. HIS blessing. His life, His death, His resurrection. His Cross, His blood, His sacrifice. His righteousness, His obedience, His holiness. Not you. Not yours. You may have some other role in some other matter (Christian living, for example), but not this. The "job" of Savior belongs to Jesus. Not you.

IF you answer "ME!" then you are the Savior. Not Jesus. Not a bit, not at all. Not now, not ever. Not in any way, shape or form or manner. Salvation is all wrapped up in YOU. YOUR works. YOUR will. YOUR love. YOUR efforts. YOUR merits. YOUR obedience. YOUR righteousness. YOUR holiness. YOUR sacrifice. Not Jesus. Not Jesus'. Jesus may have some other role in some other matter, just not this one. The Savior is you.

Which is it? If you give the Christian answer, a LOT of Christianity falls into place.

Thank you.

Pax

- Josiah

.

The logical flip side of this position is that Jesus is also responsible for those who go to hell. If a person bears absolutely 0 responsibility for his or her salvation in any sense - be that thought, word or deed, they also bear 0 responsibility for a state of "non salvation".

Lamb · Apr 1, 2016

Stravinsk said:
The logical flip side of this position is that Jesus is also responsible for those who go to hell. If a person bears absolutely 0 responsibility for his or her salvation in any sense - be that thought, word or deed, they also bear 0 responsibility for a state of "non salvation".

Jesus isn't responsible at all for the men who go to hell. It's THEIR fault because they reject the forgiveness won at the cross. That's not Jesus' fault at all.

Stravinsk · Apr 1, 2016

Lämmchen said:
Jesus isn't responsible at all for the men who go to hell. It's THEIR fault because they reject the forgiveness won at the cross. That's not Jesus' fault at all.

So then, they can be justified by their self-willed act of obedience to accept the cross?

Lamb · Apr 1, 2016

Stravinsk said:
So then, they can be justified by their self-willed act of obedience to accept the cross?

No, acceptance doesn't get us to heaven. We are all saved in the same way, by grace through faith. We can't accept our way into faith, it's a gift given to us from God. Those who reject damn themselves.

Stravinsk · Apr 1, 2016

Lämmchen said:
No, acceptance doesn't get us to heaven. We are all saved in the same way, by grace through faith. We can't accept our way into faith, it's a gift given to us from God. Those who reject damn themselves.

Then the premise stands.

I reject it, btw. In Matthew chapter 7 Yeshua clearly shows man's responsibility and how his actions affect his destination.

The idea that we can bring nothing to God by an act of will is also shown to be false in the parable of the talents. Why say "well done, good and faithful servant", if Jesus is just thanking Himself?

Lamb · Apr 1, 2016

Stravinsk said:
Then the premise stands.

I reject it, btw. In Matthew chapter 7 Yeshua clearly shows man's responsibility and how his actions affect his destination.

The idea that we can bring nothing to God by an act of will is also shown to be false in the parable of the talents. Why say "well done, good and faithful servant", if Jesus is just thanking Himself?

The servant is already his in that parable. You forgot that part.

Stravinsk · Apr 1, 2016

Lämmchen said:
The servant is already his in that parable. You forgot that part.

Then the servant who buried his talent and went to the place of weeping and gnashing of teeth is also his servant. (Matt 25:28-30)

I know I know...I can be maddening. Gotta love the doctrine of a true disciple of Yeshua though. Cuts through a lot of theological stuff.

(Edit: I speak of course of Matthew, a hand picked disciple of Yeshua).

psalms 91 · Apr 1, 2016

Lämmchen said:
The servant is already his in that parable. You forgot that part.

Man plays a part that is called free will to choose to sin or not. Also to be faithful and further the kingdom or sit back

MoreCoffee · Apr 1, 2016

Seems to me that it is too obvious to need an explanation that people choose or refuse to believe the gospel. Some like it some do not. Some feel a draw by the stories and promises and the hope of peace and others do not. Some see a fairly tale and some a profound truth. In the end the ultimate reason for their reactions is not fully known but from a human perspective it is a matter of choice and to pretend otherwise is just playing games. So this question of "justified by our works or by Christ's works" is kind of silly. It's a theological question that is not raised in the holy scriptures. Clearly a man (or woman) is made just/righteous by what they do, say, and think and if granted grace by what God decides. One is saved by grace not by justification. Justification is a process and a gift. It is a gift given by God in grace. It is not earned by what a person has, does, says, thinks, or has inherited. Yet what one does, thinks, says, and has inherited plays a role in making one just or unjust. The person who cheats, lies, steals, denies justice to others and so forth is not justified before God or man. Such a person is unjust/unrighteous. So clearly works plays a role in Justification just like saint James says "a man is justified by works and not by faith alone".

Josiah · Apr 1, 2016

MoreCoffee said:
Seems to me that it is too obvious to need an explanation that people choose or refuse to believe the gospel. Some like it some do not. Some feel a draw by the stories and promises and the hope of peace and others do not. Some see a fairly tale and some a profound truth. In the end the ultimate reason for their reactions is not fully known but from a human perspective it is a matter of choice and to pretend otherwise is just playing games. So this question of "justified by our works or by Christ's works" is kind of silly. It's a theological question that is not raised in the holy scriptures. Clearly a man (or woman) is made just/righteous by what they do, say, and think and if granted grace by what God decides. One is saved by grace not by justification. Justification is a process and a gift. It is a gift given by God in grace. It is not earned by what a person has, does, says, thinks, or has inherited. Yet what one does, thinks, says, and has inherited plays a role in making one just or unjust. The person who cheats, lies, steals, denies justice to others and so forth is not justified before God or man. Such a person is unjust/unrighteous. So clearly works plays a role in Justification just like saint James says "a man is justified by works and not by faith alone".

Ah. Then you pick "ME" as the Savior. That's what our Catholic teachers taught us, as well. And it's what those nice LDS "missionaries" teach, too.

IMO, Jesus is the Savior. Now, I agree with our friend that that leaves us with a mystery as to why not all are saved, and I agree, that IS a mystery. But while I leave that mystery as such, I do not attempt to "address" it by abandoning Christianity and siding with Islam or Judaism or Mormonism that we are the savior of self, so if self saves self then self is saved (or not). That's "logical" in a sense, it's just unchristian: Christianity has universally and for 2000 years taught that Jesus IS the Savior - not the one we see in the mirror (and those are the only two options - looking to the Cross or looking in the mirror; see the opening post).

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Stravinsk · Apr 1, 2016

Josiah said:
Ah. Then you pick "ME" as the Savior. That's what our Catholic teachers taught us, as well. And it's what those nice LDS "missionaries" teach, too.

IMO, Jesus is the Savior. Now, I agree with our friend that that leaves us with a mystery as to why not all are saved, and I agree, that IS a mystery. But while I leave that mystery as such, I do not attempt to "address" it by abandoning Christianity and siding with Islam or Judaism or Mormonism that we are the savior of self, so if self saves self then self is saved (or not). That's "logical" in a sense, it's just unchristian: Christianity has universally and for 2000 years taught that Jesus IS the Savior - not the one we see in the mirror (and those are the only two options - looking to the Cross or looking in the mirror; see the opening post).

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Not Judaism, Islam, Mormanism, not a "mystery" and not any abandonment of the faith:

Revelation 22: 12 “Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

14 “Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

Smashing up Saul/Paul's "gospel of Grace" one verse at a time. There IS grace, but it is through repentance, faith and forgiveness of others, not just a catch phrase or some theological understanding.

MoreCoffee · Apr 1, 2016

Josiah said:
Ah. Then you pick "ME" as the Savior. That's what our Catholic teachers taught us, as well. ...

No, it is not what the Catholic Church teaches nor what I said.

I sometimes wonder if you read what I write or just fly into some kind of automatic response on what YOU THINK Catholics teach and believe.

Josiah · Apr 1, 2016

MoreCoffee said:
Clearly a man (or woman) is made just/righteous by what they do, say.... what one does, thinks, says plays a role in making one just or unjust. "

That's self looking in the mirror at self; self declaring self for justification.

Now, I agree - you said some things I'd agree with but you drowned all of it with this ultimate declaration that self is the savior of self.

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MoreCoffee · Apr 1, 2016

MoreCoffee said:
Seems to me that it is too obvious to need an explanation that people choose or refuse to believe the gospel. Some like it some do not. Some feel a draw by the stories and promises and the hope of peace and others do not. Some see a fairly tale and some a profound truth. In the end the ultimate reason for their reactions is not fully known but from a human perspective it is a matter of choice and to pretend otherwise is just playing games. So this question of "justified by our works or by Christ's works" is kind of silly. It's a theological question that is not raised in the holy scriptures. Clearly a man (or woman) is made just/righteous by what they do, say, and think and if granted grace by what God decides. One is saved by grace not by justification. Justification is a process and a gift. It is a gift given by God in grace. It is not earned by what a person has, does, says, thinks, or has inherited. Yet what one does, thinks, says, and has inherited plays a role in making one just or unjust. The person who cheats, lies, steals, denies justice to others and so forth is not justified before God or man. Such a person is unjust/unrighteous. So clearly works plays a role in Justification just like saint James says "a man is justified by works and not by faith alone".

Josiah said:
That's self looking in the mirror at self; self declaring self for justification. ...

See, that what you get for not reading what my post says and pretending that it says something that it doesn't.

Josiah · Apr 1, 2016

MoreCoffee said:
See, that what you get for not reading what my post says and pretending that it says something that it doesn't.

.... a perspective that you look in the mirror at self. Option # 2: Self.

It is my view that Christ is the Savior (in the sense of narrow justification), NOT self. I'm the first to admit there are mysteries involved here... details in a sense unknown... but the point I'd stress is that it's NOT me, it's CHRIST - the very thing you desired to evade, to mitigate against. You lead all up to the RCC/LDS spin on the James verse so as to stress that the important part, the effectual part is..... YOU.

I know that's the Catholic position, but we're in disagreement on that.

MoreCoffee · Apr 1, 2016

Josiah said:
.... a perspective that you look in the mirror at self. ...

A perspective that people have through experience. But you want to pretend to knowledge that you very likely do not have; namely, to know the secret purposes of God regarding others.

Lamb · Apr 1, 2016

Stravinsk said:
Then the servant who buried his talent and went to the place of weeping and gnashing of teeth is also his servant. (Matt 25:28-30)

I know I know...I can be maddening. Gotta love the doctrine of a true disciple of Yeshua though. Cuts through a lot of theological stuff.

(Edit: I speak of course of Matthew, a hand picked disciple of Yeshua).

I don't believe in Once Saved, Always Saved.

Stravinsk · Apr 1, 2016

Lämmchen said:
I don't believe in Once Saved, Always Saved.

I don't believe in making the judgement in the first place. To determine who is saved is God's judgement. Men want to know, and it is not their right nor their call. This is the heart of the matter, and what is behind the instruction of Yeshua not to judge nor condemn. People, that is. It is the ultimate arrogance of men to make this determination, which alone is God's.

God sets the measures, not us. Even if the measures are known, it is God's Judgement, not any mans, which counts - for only God sees the big picture of a persons life.

CS Lewis gets this right. One human being cannot possibly know the depth of all the decisions, the influences, the circumstances of another to make any judgement as to their ultimate fate. Only God can. And thank Him for that. He alone knows all, every man and woman's heart- their whole life, and all the choices they made and why.

The servant in the parable is judged by God and found not worthy - it is not ours to set a measure for others, rather, it is a warning to everyone one of us.

Justification: By OUR works or CHRIST'S works?

simul justus et peccator

God's Lil Lamb

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God's Lil Lamb

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God's Lil Lamb

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God's Lil Lamb

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simul justus et peccator

Composer and Artist on Flat Earth

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simul justus et peccator

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simul justus et peccator

Well-known member

God's Lil Lamb

Composer and Artist on Flat Earth