Are the "creeds" Truth ?

Alithis · Mar 22, 2016

tango said:
I always saw the creeds as effectively a condensed summary of what the Scriptures teach that represent the core of what the church in question believes.

In that light it essentially means that if you can recite the creed and mean it, you believe the same as the church believes on the things that matter. If you can't accept something that is in one of the creeds the church recites, effectively "you are not one of us".

Put another way, if the creed in question says "I believe Jesus Christ was born of a virgin by the power of the Holy Spirit, died for the sins of mankind, and rose again on the third day" and nothing else, then if you believe that you can be regarded as a Christian in the eyes of the church, and if you do not then you cannot. I don't have a problem with creeds (I see them largely like a church's statement of faith) but do have a problem when they become too exclusive. I decided not to attend one church because their statement of faith explicitly listed a pre-tribulation rapture and that the gifts of the Spirit have ceased; another church elevated their view on alcohol (in their case the view was that no Christian should drink alcohol, buy or sell alcohol etc) to their statement of faith. Because I couldn't accept the statements of faith of the churches in question I couldn't see how I could ever be a member, and if I couldn't ever be a member there was no point me attending.

In fairness, if you don't believe that Jesus Christ died for the sins of mankind and rose again on the third day it wouldn't be at all unreasonable to question whether you were really a Christian at all. But if you and I have different views on whether we should take communion before the collection, or whether we should wear our Sunday best to church or come just as we are, or whether we should sing traditional hymns or contemporary songs, that's a secondary matter and we don't need to break fellowship over it.

the title asks are the creeds truth .. and the Op states ..of course they are in as much as they are based on the word of God .
but are the creeds themselves , being interpretations of fallible man, as infallible as the scripture itself .. of course not .
and i see you actually have got my point in your example of a denominations creed with regard to the example you gave .
so all good .

it's exactly the sort of thing i mean . if we take a teaching and say we can infer that it is scriptural even when it is not and then say "our creed" also states it .and then impose it as a scriptural teachings using "a creed" as the final authority .then we have built a foundation independant of the word of God upon which to build that teachng.
-dangerous ground methinks . Because the creeds are fallible interpretations of men .

Lamb · Mar 22, 2016

Alithis said:
but are the creeds themselves , being interpretations of fallible man, as infallible as the scripture itself .. of course not .

Ah, I think most of us missed the gist of the thread since you said you agreed with the creeds. You're asking if they are infallible.

MoreCoffee · Mar 22, 2016

Lämmchen said:
Ah, I think most of us missed the gist of the thread since you said you agreed with the creeds. You're asking if they are infallible.

I reckon that if they are true then they are infallibly true since what is true is the truth no matter what. Seems to me that to say:

I believe in God, the Father Almighty, Creator of Heaven and earth;
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son Our Lord,
Who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried.
He descended into Hell; the third day He rose again from the dead;
He ascended into Heaven, and sitteth at the right hand of God, the Father almighty; from thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body and life everlasting.
Amen.

Is just as infallibly true as to say:

Christ was truly God.
But he did not try to remain equal with God.
Instead he gave up everything and became a slave, when he became like one of us.
Christ was humble. He obeyed God and even died on a cross.
Then God gave Christ the highest place and honoured his name above all others.
So at the name of Jesus everyone will bow down, those in heaven, on earth, and under the earth.
And to the glory of God the Father everyone will openly agree, "Jesus Christ is Lord!"

because both are true truth - in fact I know of no truth that is not true and if it is true then it is infallibly true.

tango · Mar 23, 2016

Alithis said:
the title asks are the creeds truth .. and the Op states ..of course they are in as much as they are based on the word of God .
but are the creeds themselves , being interpretations of fallible man, as infallible as the scripture itself .. of course not .
and i see you actually have got my point in your example of a denominations creed with regard to the example you gave .
so all good .

it's exactly the sort of thing i mean . if we take a teaching and say we can infer that it is scriptural even when it is not and then say "our creed" also states it .and then impose it as a scriptural teachings using "a creed" as the final authority .then we have built a foundation independant of the word of God upon which to build that teachng.
-dangerous ground methinks . Because the creeds are fallible interpretations of men .

Sure, although if we look at, say, Matthew chapter 27 and then summarise it with "he suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died and was buried." and then summarise Matthew chapter 28 with "On the third day he rose again" and then take "He ascended into heaven" from Acts 1:10, we're effectively distilling fundamental truth from Scripture.

I agree entirely that something written by man derived from the Bible should be tested against the Bible to make sure it is a fair summary but once that has been done we can reasonably accept that derivative work as sound and use it as a basis of our faith. If someone asked you "tell me what you believe in five minutes or less" then something like one of the creeds may help you summarise it, far more effectively than picking through 66 books (or 73, if that's your thing) figuring out what's critical and what isn't on the go.

A summary creed can also be useful for testing another belief to see if it fits in with what you consider to be the acceptable bounds of Christianity. If, for example, you accept "he suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died and was buried. On the third day he rose again." as a critical element of your faith then anyone coming along with a theory that he didn't actually die but was in a deep coma, and the coolness of the tomb allowed him to recover, then you can see at a stroke that they reject a central premise of your faith and therefore the teaching can't be considered to be compatible with your beliefs. On the other hand if someone comes along and says they like to wear a green shirt with blue pants on a Thursday afternoon you can see that your condensed summaries don't mention such things so you can conclude they are of secondary importance. At that point you might look to a wider summary of your beliefs (for example I wouldn't necessarily expect to see fine detail of how we should live condensed into a creed) and if there's still no mention you can figure that the issue is unimportant.

Are the "creeds" Truth ?

Alithis

Well-known member

Lamb

God's Lil Lamb

MoreCoffee

Well-known member

tango

... and you shall live ...