What's the deal with Paul?

Stravinsk

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Your arguments are extremely faulty. There is no contradiction in anything I have said. Paul does not equal Jesus in any Christian's estimation, but He is anointed, empowered and full of the Holy Spirit, acting in his calling by Christ as His apostle. If a person despises the messenger, he also despises the sender....and also the message itself. Basic. Truth.

I just quoted you contradicting yourself. My argument is not faulty. It's your understanding of it.

Tell me plainly, Paulian - is what Saul/Paul said in Romans 10:9 the truth? Is it the message that Christ intended to give through Saul/Paul?

Yes or no, please.
 

Full O Beans

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I just quoted you contradicting yourself. My argument is not faulty. It's your understanding of it.

Tell me plainly, Paulian - is what Saul/Paul said in Romans 10:9 the truth? Is it the message that Christ intended to give through Saul/Paul?

Yes or no, please.

Misunderstanding! I did not contradict myself.

Romans 10:8-10
But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.


This is the word of God...truth.
 

Full O Beans

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2 Peter 2:1 (NLT)
The Danger of False Teachers

But there were also false prophets in Israel, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will cleverly teach destructive heresies and even deny the Master who bought them. In this way, they will bring sudden destruction on themselves.
 

Stravinsk

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Misunderstanding! I did not contradict myself.

Romans 10:8-10
But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.


This is the word of God...truth.

You did contradict yourself, but not in the sense you are framing it. Your contradiction lies not in the subject of individual persons, but in the belief that you think that the words of Saul/Paul are on par with those of Yeshua, because you believe him to be your Apostle.

As to Romans 10:9, which you have just affirmed you believe is the "Word of God", penned by Saul/Paul, by the Holy Spirit and in full agreement with Christ's Will:

Tell me plainly:

Why does Messiah clearly contradict this teaching HERE:

Matthew 7:21-23

Don't dare try to squeeze out of it with "they weren't REAL believers" - no...they are. They've AT LEAST got the basics of Romans 10:9 down - and they are even performing miracles in Messiah's name.

Why also does Messiah contradict Saul/Paul's Romans 10:9 HERE:

Matthew 19:17

If one believes these are irrelevant now as Saul/Paul teaches in Romans 10:9 and elsewhere, there is but one conclusion that can be drawn:

The person who believes this has replaced the teachings of Yeshua with those of Saul/Paul - which further provides evidence that Saul/Paul is an anti-Christ
 

psalms 91

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Getting ready to boot me? Shouldn't you take me off your friend's list before that happens?

:)
Why would I boot you? Not that I have the power to do that anyway. I am just pointing out that while you may believe what you will it does not mean that we shouldnt encourage or agree with you
 

psalms 91

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I just quoted you contradicting yourself. My argument is not faulty. It's your understanding of it.

Tell me plainly, Paulian - is what Saul/Paul said in Romans 10:9 the truth? Is it the message that Christ intended to give through Saul/Paul?

Yes or no, please.
Or your understanding is faulty as I see no contradicition either
 

Full O Beans

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Paul spoke for Jesus Christ. Denial of that is denial if the very word of God and the truth of Jesus Christ.

People who despise Paul despise the word of God and lack faith in Jesus Christ. They prove by their denials that they do not know Him. They are unbelievers...and worse. All hope is not lost, as once outed, we can pray for them that Holy Spirit will powerfully convince them of the truth.

I will not engage in further discussion with you, Stravinsk, on this diabolical ideation you are promoting, but I am praying for you that God will strip off those blinders so you will see the lie you've believed and will see the light of truth.
 
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Stravinsk

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Paul spoke for Jesus Christ. Denial of that is denial if the very word of God and the truth of Jesus Christ.

People who despise Paul despise the word of God and lack faith in Jesus Christ. They prove by their denials that they do not know Him. They are unbelievers...and worse. All hope is not lost, as once outed, we can pray for them that Holy Spirit will powerfully convince them of the truth.

I will not engage in further discussion with you, Stravinsk, on this diabolical ideation you are promoting, but I am praying for you that God will strip off those blinders so you will see the lie you've believed and will see the light of truth.

Once outed? Hehe

Maybe you should just leave the thread, FullOfBeans. The OP didn't ask your opinion anyway, which you have made clear elsewhere - He asked what people in MY position was, not YOURS. I'm sure you've not helped him figure out his question one whit with your pontificating.
 

Brighten04

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Paul spoke for Jesus Christ. Denial of that is denial if the very word of God and the truth of Jesus Christ.

People who despise Paul despise the word of God and lack faith in Jesus Christ. They prove by their denials that they do not know Him. They are unbelievers...and worse. All hope is not lost, as once outed, we can pray for them that Holy Spirit will powerfully convince them of the truth.

I will not engage in further discussion with you, Stravinsk, on this diabolical ideation you are promoting, but I am praying for you that God will strip off those blinders so you will see the lie you've believed and will see the light of truth.

:pray: in agreement with you sister in the Name of Jesus Christ of Nazateth.
 

Stravinsk

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Phew!

Not sure who's going to engage me now that FullOBeans has admitted defeat and run away promising special prayers after I'm "outed" (is that some sort of forum reference, FOB?). Well whatever.

George -

We non-Paulians have multiple reasons for disbelieving Saul/Paul. One link I've already provided. Here is another I provided when Lam asked the very same question:

http://false-apostle-paul-archive.b.../questions-to-ask-your-pastor-about-paul.html

Most pastors will probably not appreciate being asked the questions, and will likewise run away calling foul and pointing fingers with various accusations - veiled or otherwise.
 

psalms 91

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Phew!

Not sure who's going to engage me now that FullOBeans has admitted defeat and run away promising special prayers after I'm "outed" (is that some sort of forum reference, FOB?). Well whatever.

George -

We non-Paulians have multiple reasons for disbelieving Saul/Paul. One link I've already provided. Here is another I provided when Lam asked the very same question:

http://false-apostle-paul-archive.b.../questions-to-ask-your-pastor-about-paul.html

Most pastors will probably not appreciate being asked the questions, and will likewise run away calling foul and pointing fingers with various accusations - veiled or otherwise.
Last I saw she did not admit defeat but in yourmind you probably believe that.
 

Full O Beans

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As a Christian, I am not defeated in the defense of the truth of the word of God. Hopefully George can see that rejecting the author of most of the New Testament is foolish.

Toodles!
 
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Stravinsk

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Last I saw she did not admit defeat but in yourmind you probably believe that.

Yes Bill, in my mind she admitted defeat by not answering the points put forth in post #24, and instead just said that because of my unbelief in Saul/Paul as Christ's Apostle, she will not engage me any more, called me an "unbeliever or worse" (that's fine, I'm definitely an unbeliever in Saul/Paul), mentioned something about me being "outed" (what this means I can only speculate has something to do with the forum based on her post # 11 - since apparently simply answering the question in the OP belies a motive to "disturb peace and foment discord"), and, not least her argument style - which is mostly to practice a form of "endless repetition" that is not conducive to a point by point discussion but belongs to either the family of meditation or brainwashing.
 

Full O Beans

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No point deserves no response.
 

Alithis

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Quoted for emphasis, not any truth. I know to most Xians, Paul=Jesus. You've just put it into words - but I already knew that about you.

you dont know many then .. iv not meet any that say that . you are filled with unbelief of the word of God .
 

Stravinsk

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you dont know many then .. iv not meet any that say that . you are filled with unbelief of the word of God .

You need to look at the statements in context, Alithis. I'm talking about authority of teachings between the two, that they are assumed equal, not the individuals themselves, and when questioned I made that point clear.

Even the assumed authority doesn't pass muster. Most people calling themselves Christian quote almost exclusively from Saul/Paul, not Yeshua.
 

Full O Beans

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As Paul spoke what Jesus gave him to speak, we speak His word that was written through Paul with confidence.
 

Stravinsk

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As Paul spoke what Jesus gave him to speak, we speak His word that was written through Paul with confidence.

If Saul/Paul is Jesus's big spokesman, then why did he misquote

Psalm 68:18

when he quoted it here:

Ephesians 4:8

Did God give gifts to the people as it says in Ephesians 4:8 or receive them FROM the people, as the Psalmist says?

Paul can't even quote the Psalm correctly and doesn't even know the context of what it's talking about - but you have confidence in everything he says?
 

Full O Beans

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Some say that Paul did not quote from the Septuagint, but from the Aramaic Targum which is used by orthodox Jews to interpret the text. The Septuagint translates the Hebrew as “You have taken,” while the Targum translates the Hebrew “You have given.”

In any event, the idea given by these two translations of the Hebrew is that God received or took gifts so that they could then be distributed to men. Since both ideas are in the text, both renderings are correct. Thus, Paul says, “He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers” (Eph. 4:11). In other words, Paul quotes this OT passage to show that Christ was victorious over our spiritual enemies, taking from them the spoils of battle and passing on the gifts to believers who in the exercise of these gifts can be victorious over the enemy. Therefore, there are no discrepancies to be found in Paul’s use of this Psalm, since this is precisely what David did when he robbed his enemy of their gifts and gave them to his men.

From: http://defendinginerrancy.com/bible-solutions/Ephesians_4.8.php
 

Stravinsk

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Some say that Paul did not quote from the Septuagint, but from the Aramaic Targum which is used by orthodox Jews to interpret the text. The Septuagint translates the Hebrew as “You have taken,” while the Targum translates the Hebrew “You have given.”

In any event, the idea given by these two translations of the Hebrew is that God received or took gifts so that they could then be distributed to men. Since both ideas are in the text, both renderings are correct. Thus, Paul says, “He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers” (Eph. 4:11). In other words, Paul quotes this OT passage to show that Christ was victorious over our spiritual enemies, taking from them the spoils of battle and passing on the gifts to believers who in the exercise of these gifts can be victorious over the enemy. Therefore, there are no discrepancies to be found in Paul’s use of this Psalm, since this is precisely what David did when he robbed his enemy of their gifts and gave them to his men.

From: http://defendinginerrancy.com/bible-solutions/Ephesians_4.8.php

That little website is handy for you eh? Hehe.

The whole basis for what is said above is false. The gifts were not given to God and then "redistributed". One needs to know the context of what those gifts were and what they were used for - which apparently Paul does not - since his basis for quoting the Psalm is to provide a proof of what he calls spiritual gifts.

So what are the gifts and are they "given" or "taken"?

Here's the evidence:

A) The verses up to 68:18 reference both God going before the people in the wilderness (verse 7),
B) The mention of Sinai (verse 8)
C) Kings and Armies being plundered (verse 12)
D) Coming from Sinai and into his sanctuary (verse 17)

In what context does all this take place? In EXODUS - in the escape from the Slavery of Egypt, where the Israelites plundered the Egyptians, fled through the wilderness guided by God, landed at Sinai, given the 10 commandments - and finally - building the Tabernacle.

Operative verses in Exodus that relates to Psalm 68:18 is the following: Exodus 35:4-29 - where all the gifts of materials and skilled labor are used to build the tabernacle.

These are the gifts being talked about - and yes, they are OFFERINGS BY MEN TO GOD.

Your so called Apostle (and the apologist you quote) are obviously clueless as to the context of the Psalm and can therefore confuse between whether God is receiving gifts or giving them. It is the former not the latter and Paul is not only misquoting the Psalm, he seems completely oblivious to the whole story it is referring to!
 
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