By schisms rent asunder, By heresies distressed ...

MoreCoffee · Jan 29, 2016

bill1231 said:
Nor Roman Catholic despite their claims

What Church did Martin Luther separate himself from?

Josiah · Jan 29, 2016

MoreCoffee said:
What Church did Martin Luther separate himself from?

None. The leader of the RC Denomination excommunicated him from that specific, singular denomination.

tango · Jan 29, 2016

Josiah said:
Does that apply to the very new tradition of a small minority of Christians to not baptize infants? Especially based on a lot of philosphies and positions they themselves don't accept (such as babies must CONSENT to things or it's forbidden to give it to them.... that we can only do things if we find it exampled in the pages of the NT)? Arguments they know aren't true and don't follow themselves?

Just out of interest, my understanding (which may be wrong, so feel free to correct me on this) is that at least some Lutheran groups believe that the act of baptising an infant (by sprinkling, not full immersion) saves the child.

How does that align with John 3:16 that says "whosoever believes in him..." rather than "whosoever's parents sprinkled them with some water"?

Either salvation is something we must work out ourselves, or it is something that can be done to us with or without our consent. The picture painted by "behold, I stand at the door and knock" isn't one of dragging people into the kingdom because their parents thought it best for them, or of saving someone because their parents bowed to social pressure and went through a religious ceremony that meant nothing to them just because they thought it was expected of them.

MoreCoffee · Jan 30, 2016

Josiah said:
... The leader of the [Catholic Church] excommunicated [Martin Luther] ...

Yes. Martin Luther left the Catholic Church having been excommunicated. Luther burned the bulla of excommunication and started his own denomination in 1521 AD and he invented doctrines to both justify his actions and condemn any who opposed his new denomination. Who believes Martin Luther's doctrines today? Is it not those whose denominations are commonly referred to as Lutheran? Thus it is shown that prior the 1521 AD the Catholic Church already existed. It is not difficult to show examples of the Catholic Church existing in centuries previous to Martin Luther's excommunication. So at least one thing is established by this foray into Luther's history and that is that the Catholic Church existed before he did.

MoreCoffee · Jan 30, 2016

Let's return to the themes proposed in the original post. This thread was not meant to be an excuse for attacking the Catholic Church or any of the denominations of Protestantism.

MoreCoffee said:
There's a lot of heresy around nowadays. I guess there always has been but now it seems that there are many who profess faith in Jesus Christ but believe heresies and these people attend meetings in churches and denominations that have (in former times) a reputation for orthodoxy on the major doctrines of the faith. There are people who:

express doubts about the importance of doctrine

voice the opinion that theology will not form a part of the matter upon which one is judged at the last judgement

say that belief in the Holy Trinity is not 'essential for salvation'

and that a proper understanding of the incarnation is too academic and too obscure to be expected of the man (or woman) sitting in the pew

Some want to enjoy 'church services' and be 'fed' at them but do not seem very concerned about what is taught in the 'church services' that they attend they say that they are looking for a place where their family can feel at home and where the greeting is warm and the children are catered for with an assortment of activities suitable for their ages. Some want seeker friendly services. Some want contemporary music and contemporary (and relevant) messages. A few want a good liturgy.

Where is this leading? Will the folk who say these sorts of things and desire these qualities in the meetings that they attend face a harsh judgement from God or is that unimportant?

MoreCoffee · Jan 30, 2016

tango said:
Just out of interest, my understanding (which may be wrong, so feel free to correct me on this) is that at least some Lutheran groups believe that the act of baptising an infant (by sprinkling, not full immersion) saves the child.

How does that align with John 3:16 that says "whosoever believes in him..." rather than "whosoever's parents sprinkled them with some water"?

Either salvation is something we must work out ourselves, or it is something that can be done to us with or without our consent. The picture painted by "behold, I stand at the door and knock" isn't one of dragging people into the kingdom because their parents thought it best for them, or of saving someone because their parents bowed to social pressure and went through a religious ceremony that meant nothing to them just because they thought it was expected of them.

If salvation were decided for eternity in an instant of belief or in an instant of baptism then your question would be appropriate but do you believe that salvation is decided that way?

I presume that only a few believe that having said the sinner's prayer the rest of their life is irrelevant as far as their final salvation is concerned.

Lamb · Jan 30, 2016

tango said:
Just out of interest, my understanding (which may be wrong, so feel free to correct me on this) is that at least some Lutheran groups believe that the act of baptising an infant (by sprinkling, not full immersion) saves the child.

How does that align with John 3:16 that says "whosoever believes in him..." rather than "whosoever's parents sprinkled them with some water"?

Either salvation is something we must work out ourselves, or it is something that can be done to us with or without our consent. The picture painted by "behold, I stand at the door and knock" isn't one of dragging people into the kingdom because their parents thought it best for them, or of saving someone because their parents bowed to social pressure and went through a religious ceremony that meant nothing to them just because they thought it was expected of them.

Baptism is God's Word with the water. We know that God's Word does not return to Him empty and it's because of God's Word that we are brought to faith so baptism brings faith. Baptism and salvation by grace through faith are not in conflict.

Justification and Sanctification are 2 different things. In Justification, the work is done completely for us. In Sanctification we cooperate with the Holy Spirit.

Those who stand at the door and knock in that verse, they're already believers.

Josiah · Jan 30, 2016

MoreCoffee said:
Yes. Martin Luther left the Catholic Church having been excommunicated.

Correct, he was excommunicated. He was kicked out. Thus, he didn't leave..... The RC Pope split his denomination, Luther did not. The RC Pope kicked Luther out, Luther didn't leave.

Of course, this wasn't the first time this happened. Bigger examples happened in 451 and 1054.

Luther started his own denomination in 1521 AD

Not technically correct, but in general yes - these Christians continued to worship God and to do so in communion with others. From that eventually came denominations - so that in Europe there were now Orthodox denominations, the RC Denomination, and the Evangelical ones. Soon there would be the Church of England Denomination are various Reformed Denominations. When Christians congregate together - we have congregations. When congregations associate together - we have denominations.

Who believes Martin Luther's doctrines today?

No one.

Lutherans do not follow Luther, they follow Christ. The words of Luther are not normative for Lutherans, the written words of God are.

Thus it is shown that prior the 1521 AD the Catholic Church already existed.

Yes. As did the various Eastern Orthodox Denominations and the various Oriental Orthodox Denominations. Plus a plethora of congregations not owned and operated by any denomination.

the Catholic Church existed before he did.

True. So what?

You evade the point: It's the RCC that split itself. The Roman Catholic Pope at the time excommunicated Luther and thus split (schism) his own denomination. If the split disturbs you, take it up with that Pope and the denomination he lead.

TurtleHare · Jan 30, 2016

MoreCoffee said:
Yes. Martin Luther left the Catholic Church having been excommunicated. Luther burned the bulla of excommunication and started his own denomination in 1521 AD and he invented doctrines to both justify his actions and condemn any who opposed his new denomination. Who believes Martin Luther's doctrines today? Is it not those whose denominations are commonly referred to as Lutheran? Thus it is shown that prior the 1521 AD the Catholic Church already existed. It is not difficult to show examples of the Catholic Church existing in centuries previous to Martin Luther's excommunication. So at least one thing is established by this foray into Luther's history and that is that the Catholic Church existed before he did.

Luther didn't start a new denomination and not all of his beliefs were biblical because he changed some of them a few times throughout his life, so no, Lutherans don't follow Luther. It was just a name that stuck after the Roman Catholics didn't want to be corrected on their bad theology and what is a wonderful thing is that there were changes in that theology that we know about today.

MoreCoffee · Jan 30, 2016

TurtleHare said:
Luther didn't start a new denomination and not all of his beliefs were biblical because he changed some of them a few times throughout his life, so no, Lutherans don't follow Luther. It was just a name that stuck after the Roman Catholics didn't want to be corrected on their bad theology and what is a wonderful thing is that there were changes in that theology that we know about today.

I asked who followed Martin Luther's doctrines I did not ask who followed Martin Luther but I can understand the confusion because those who do accept Martin Luther's doctrines would usually be considered to be his followers.

TurtleHare · Jan 30, 2016

MoreCoffee said:
I asked who followed Martin Luther's doctrines I did not ask who followed Martin Luther but I can understand the confusion because those who do accept Martin Luther's doctrines would usually be considered to be his followers.

You do know that Lutheran doctrine isn't only comprised with beliefs from Martin Luther, now do you? Well, I think you must believe that or you wouldn't have asked that question.

MoreCoffee · Jan 30, 2016

TurtleHare said:
You do know that Lutheran doctrine isn't only comprised with beliefs from Martin Luther, now do you? Well, I think you must believe that or you wouldn't have asked that question.

I didn't suggest that Luther's doctrines were the only doctrines believed among Lutherans.

MoreCoffee · Jan 30, 2016

Can we return to the thread's topic ... soon

MoreCoffee said:
Let's return to the themes proposed in the original post. This thread was not meant to be an excuse for attacking the Catholic Church or any of the denominations of Protestantism.

MoreCoffee said:

There's a lot of heresy around nowadays. I guess there always has been but now it seems that there are many who profess faith in Jesus Christ but believe heresies and these people attend meetings in churches and denominations that have (in former times) a reputation for orthodoxy on the major doctrines of the faith. There are people who:

express doubts about the importance of doctrine

voice the opinion that theology will not form a part of the matter upon which one is judged at the last judgement

say that belief in the Holy Trinity is not 'essential for salvation'

and that a proper understanding of the incarnation is too academic and too obscure to be expected of the man (or woman) sitting in the pew

Some want to enjoy 'church services' and be 'fed' at them but do not seem very concerned about what is taught in the 'church services' that they attend they say that they are looking for a place where their family can feel at home and where the greeting is warm and the children are catered for with an assortment of activities suitable for their ages. Some want seeker friendly services. Some want contemporary music and contemporary (and relevant) messages. A few want a good liturgy.

Where is this leading? Will the folk who say these sorts of things and desire these qualities in the meetings that they attend face a harsh judgement from God or is that unimportant?

Click to expand...

Josiah · Jan 30, 2016

MoreCoffee said:
I asked who followed Martin Luther's doctrines

No one.

And no, Luther did not excommunicate himself from the RC Denomination, he did not kicked himself out of that denomination, he did not hold a gun to the Pope's head and demand that the Pope split the RC Denomination.

MoreCoffee · Jan 30, 2016

Josiah said:
No one.

And no, Luther did not excommunicate himself ...

Did somebody say that he did?

psalms 91 · Jan 30, 2016

sometimes words trip us up, no

MoreCoffee · Jan 30, 2016

bill1231 said:
sometimes words trip us up, no

yes, sometimes words can trip one up.

By schisms rent asunder, By heresies distressed ...

MoreCoffee

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Josiah

simul justus et peccator

tango

... and you shall live ...

MoreCoffee

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MoreCoffee

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MoreCoffee

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Lamb

God's Lil Lamb

Josiah

simul justus et peccator

TurtleHare

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MoreCoffee

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TurtleHare

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MoreCoffee

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MoreCoffee

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Josiah

simul justus et peccator

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psalms 91

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