The Repenting Thief and Christ's statement to Mary

popsthebuilder

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Lol. First, sir, I really don't care what you think are the criteria for being saved. Those are criteria that, according Matthew 7, God will hold you to, if you hold others to them. So good luck with that, especially holding blatant contradictions in your mind with regards to stuff like this. I understand, in order to accept everything in the new testament one must practice certain mental gymnastics and selectively apply standards.

To wit, I'll lay it out for you plain:

John 20: 16 Jesus said to her, “Mary.”

She turned toward him and cried out in Aramaic, “Rabboni!” (which means “Teacher”).

17 Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”


If this is true, and "Paradise" means the abode of God, heaven, etc - to which, Christ, according to this verse had NOT yet ascended...

Then this:

Luke 23: 40 But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence? 41 We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.”

42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.[d]”

43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”


Cannot be.
It could just be an issue with translation. Maybe even intentional for confusion of the faithful.

It isn't promoting continued sin with salvation. The thief was truly repentant. Generally one would not be repentant on their death bed, but scared. Pretty sure literally being crucified next to the Christ of GOD might have the capacity for a drastic sincere change in heart though.


Peace

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
 

Lamb

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God gives faith in His own timing, not ours. It isn't the amount of faith but that we have it and faith grabs onto what the truth is. The thief was given faith and didn't have to do a thing to earn salvation.
 

Josiah

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This isn't about tidbits of information, it is about a contradiction in the text that

I notice no contradiction at all.



I noticed you mentioned Biography - well despite negations that it isn't, both Matthew and Luke have a genealogy account of Messiah which go to arguing that to a certain extent, it is a biography.

I disagree. Yes, two of the four mention heritage, but this is because the Messiah is to come from the line of David: it's a theological point, not biography. If the 4 are meant to be biographies, it's odd they would leave out 90% of his years of life for starters. But I think some "read" the Gospels as if they were technical biographies in a very modern, technical sense. They aren't. They are GOSPELS, evangelism sermons. "These things are written so that you believe that Jesus is the Christ and that by believing in Him, you have eternal life." Not, "This is a technical biolography of Jesus so that you'll now his history and all the aspects of his life."




Thank you.


- Josiah
 

Lamb

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They are GOSPELS, evangelism sermons. "These things are written so that you believe that Jesus is the Christ and that by believing in Him, you have eternal life." Not, "This is a technical biolography of Jesus so that you'll now his history and all the aspects of his life."

When I hear about people getting stuck on one thing from the Bible, I do what you do, go back to what the main purpose IS of scriptures :)
 

Stravinsk

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I notice no contradiction at all.

Just read the crucifixion story in Luke, then go over to Matthew and read the crucifixion story. At the time Messiah is Crucified, around the 6th hour, according to Matthew, the chief priests, elders, teachers of the law AND BOTH robbers are mocking Him. According to Luke, at this very same time, only ONE of the robbers mock Messiah, and the other rebukes him.

Now if someone wants to believe that one of the robbers was hurling insults at Messiah then in a very short time did a complete turn around of his position for no apparent reason that's up to them. Otherwise it's a clear contradiction in the two stories.

I disagree. Yes, two of the four mention heritage, but this is because the Messiah is to come from the line of David: it's a theological point, not biography. If the 4 are meant to be biographies, it's odd they would leave out 90% of his years of life for starters. But I think some "read" the Gospels as if they were technical biographies in a very modern, technical sense. They aren't. They are GOSPELS, evangelism sermons. "These things are written so that you believe that Jesus is the Christ and that by believing in Him, you have eternal life." Not, "This is a technical biolography of Jesus so that you'll now his history and all the aspects of his life."




Thank you.


- Josiah

A biography doesn't necessarily need to include parts of someone's life that did or does not have impact on humanity. The stories are written, as you say, so that people will believe in Messiah. The stories contain "technical" data - or details, in places. It is not the fault of the reader for noticing this data differs in two different accounts and rightfully DOUBTING that something is amiss.
 

Alithis

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God gives faith in His own timing, not ours. It isn't the amount of faith but that we have it and faith grabs onto what the truth is. The thief was given faith and didn't have to do a thing to earn salvation.

scripture ?
 

Alithis

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your all debating with an unbeliever -- define a theist . to see where he comes from.

any spirit that sows doubt.. and this poster is certainly sowing doubt (tempting us all to have doubt in the validity of the Scriptures) is NOT speaking by the Spirit of god but inspired by a spirit of unbelief and religious doubt . Gods word remains true .
 

TurtleHare

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your all debating with an unbeliever -- define a theist . to see where he comes from.

any spirit that sows doubt.. and this poster is certainly sowing doubt (tempting us all to have doubt in the validity of the Scriptures) is NOT speaking by the Spirit of god but inspired by a spirit of unbelief and religious doubt . Gods word remains true .

Speak for yourself cuz he's not causing me to have doubt at all in God's Word and the forgiveness won at the cross. Perhaps some day something we say to him will finally click in his head so I hope you're not telling us to not converse with unbelievers on the site?

Hey, Stravinsk, you're doing a good thing by reading scripture and questioning things because even the Bereans examined scripture so don't let anyone knock you down. I just think that to question a few small elements and forget what the entirety of scripture is about is not the right thing to do because you miss the big picture, the point of what God is telling us and isn't that what satan wants?
 

Stravinsk

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Speak for yourself cuz he's not causing me to have doubt at all in God's Word and the forgiveness won at the cross. Perhaps some day something we say to him will finally click in his head so I hope you're not telling us to not converse with unbelievers on the site?

Hey, Stravinsk, you're doing a good thing by reading scripture and questioning things because even the Bereans examined scripture so don't let anyone knock you down. I just think that to question a few small elements and forget what the entirety of scripture is about is not the right thing to do because you miss the big picture, the point of what God is telling us and isn't that what satan wants?

Thank you for your kind words and your good intent.

I do not see myself as losing sight of the big picture though. I was raised Christian and was church goer for most of my life. The questions I have thus far asked and otherwise responded to represent a small fraction of my beliefs. I'm also fine with being called an "unbeliever" - even though I recognize the validity of 2 Gospels. Others have helped to open my eyes in a few areas, and I'm quite comfortable with what I believe now, because although it is by far the minority position - I consider it more intellectually honest.
 

popsthebuilder

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Thank you for your kind words and your good intent.

I do not see myself as losing sight of the big picture though. I was raised Christian and was church goer for most of my life. The questions I have thus far asked and otherwise responded to represent a small fraction of my beliefs. I'm also fine with being called an "unbeliever" - even though I recognize the validity of 2 Gospels. Others have helped to open my eyes in a few areas, and I'm quite comfortable with what I believe now, because although it is by far the minority position - I consider it more intellectually honest.
Care to give a brief description?

Peace.

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
 

Stravinsk

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Care to give a brief description?

Peace.

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

I think I already have.

I accept Matthew and John as the best representations of Messiah, and do not accept Luke or Mark's Gospels. I do not believe in Saul/Paul's conversion experience and do not accept his epistles as inspired. While they contain some truths and helpful things - I see many of his teachings as adulterated or outright in error. I accept Revelation. I accept the Epistles of John and Jude. I do not accept the Peterine epistles, I do not believe they were written by Peter-their authorship is in doubt on a literary level.

I accept the Cannon of the "old Testament" as inspired, but am willing to concede it may not be complete in our bibles. For example, the Book of Enoch is missing.

I consider myself Deist mainly because it is a general position that relies on logic and observation first, but (for me anyway), can concede inspired texts where it can be seen that they are relevant, either spiritually or in the observation/understanding of the world in general. Secondly, many people define people of their faith by what inspired text they believe in. To many Christians - it's the whole Cannon of the Bible or Bust. So as I have said earlier, I do not bother with the title, because I do not feel the need to force upon myself certain select writings contained in the many BOOKS of the bible when I have good reason to doubt some of them - and certainly not for the sake of anyone else's definition of what a believer is.

Probably the most controversial thing insofar as Christians are concerned that I believe is this: I believe Saul/Paul is not only untrustworthy, I also think he is an Anti-Christ. One of the first and biggest.
 

popsthebuilder

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I think I already have.

I accept Matthew and John as the best representations of Messiah, and do not accept Luke or Mark's Gospels. I do not believe in Saul/Paul's conversion experience and do not accept his epistles as inspired. While they contain some truths and helpful things - I see many of his teachings as adulterated or outright in error. I accept Revelation. I accept the Epistles of John and Jude. I do not accept the Peterine epistles, I do not believe they were written by Peter-their authorship is in doubt on a literary level.

I accept the Cannon of the "old Testament" as inspired, but am willing to concede it may not be complete in our bibles. For example, the Book of Enoch is missing.

I consider myself Deist mainly because it is a general position that relies on logic and observation first, but (for me anyway), can concede inspired texts where it can be seen that they are relevant, either spiritually or in the observation/understanding of the world in general. Secondly, many people define people of their faith by what inspired text they believe in. To many Christians - it's the whole Cannon of the Bible or Bust. So as I have said earlier, I do not bother with the title, because I do not feel the need to force upon myself certain select writings contained in the many BOOKS of the bible when I have good reason to doubt some of them - and certainly not for the sake of anyone else's definition of what a believer is.

Probably the most controversial thing insofar as Christians are concerned that I believe is this: I believe Saul/Paul is not only untrustworthy, I also think he is an Anti-Christ. One of the first and biggest.
Thank you for your description. I too do not consider the bible to be the only profitable word of God. Nor do I consider the entire book to be without flaw. I read many religious core texts including the book of Enoch which is indeed divinely inspired.

It is good to make your acquaintance. We seem to have some similar views. I look forward to speaking with you further in the future.

Humbly,
Peace


Faith in selfless Unity for Good.
 
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