Me theology

ImaginaryDay2

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 11, 2015
Messages
3,967
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Much of the dependable BASE of the Democratic Party and liberalism in the USA are Catholics. They tend to vote pro-abortion, pro-same gender marriage, and pro all liberal causes. I KNOW the bishops are very upset by this but Catholics don't seem to give a rip. Many of the most liberal Democrats in government are Catholics. There ARE exceptions, of course (Marco Rubio was one - but didn't get support from Catholics). African Americans and Catholics are the two, huge, blocks within the Democrat Party that the Democrats can count on. Labor use to be but not so much now.

And you know this from what verifiable and reliable sources?

According to a 'Pew Research' poll, Catholics are pretty well split, with 37% Republican, 44% Democratic, and 19% Independent/no preference. The poll makes the conclusion of a "+7" lean toward Democratic, but it's not necessarily true if you factor in the independent vote (typically conservative, such as Libertarian).
The "Democratic Base" comes from historically black churches (COGIC, AME, National Baptist), followed by non-Christian groups - Universalists being the second largest demographic in the poll.
So that's a "NO" on Catholics being the "dependable base of the Democratic Party and liberalism".

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/02/23/u-s-religious-groups-and-their-political-leanings/
 
Last edited:

MoreCoffee

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
19,115
Location
Western Australia
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Catholic
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Single
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
According to a 'Pew Research' poll, Catholics are pretty well split, with 37% Republican, 44% Democratic, and 19% Independent/no preference. The poll makes the conclusion of a "+7" lean toward Democratic, but it's not necessarily true if you factor in the independent vote (typically conservative, such as Libertarian).
The "Democratic Base" comes from historically black churches (COGIC, AME, National Baptist), followed by non-Christian groups - Universalists being the second largest demographic in the poll.
So that's a "NO" on Catholics being the "dependable base of the Democratic Party and liberalism".

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/02/23/u-s-religious-groups-and-their-political-leanings/

Yes, as I implied, claims that Catholics form the USA Democratic party's core voters are not supported by the facts.
 

psalms 91

Well-known member
Moderator
Valued Contributor
Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 22, 2015
Messages
15,205
Age
75
Location
Pa
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Charismatic
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
I am Democrsat and not Catholic
 

psalms 91

Well-known member
Moderator
Valued Contributor
Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 22, 2015
Messages
15,205
Age
75
Location
Pa
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Charismatic
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
perhaps but with the joke that is the Republican frontrunner not so much. To easy to come back with him or the government shutdown.
 

Lamb

God's Lil Lamb
Community Team
Administrator
Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2015
Messages
31,568
Age
57
Gender
Female
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
"The theology of glory is the natural default setting for human beings addicted to control and measurement. This perspective puts us squarely in the driver's seat, after all."

"A theology of the cross, in contrast, understands the cross to be the ultimate statement of God's involvement in the world on this side of heaven."

This link has a bad script...click only if you feel daring!

This is a bumped up thread.
 

Josiah

simul justus et peccator
Valued Contributor
Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 12, 2015
Messages
13,647
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
How does this come into play and how can it be eliminated?


Two thoughts.....


1. IMO, both Judaism and early Christianity were very corporate. The emphasis was on the PEOPLE of God, the family, the community, the communion, the oikos of God....the Body of Christ. Forgive the grammar, but it was very much "Jesus and WE" (Or God and WE). A very strong sense of community, family. The church is defined in the ancient Creed as "the Communion of Saints." BUT.... Christianity is one of two major religions that was founded in one culture but developed in a VERY different one..... Christianity became ROMAN. I took at upper division course in the History of Ancient Greece and Rome" and if there's one point I got from that, it's the OBSESSION that Rome had with individualism (entirely interlocked with institutionalism, centrality, POWER). I think Christianity became shaped in that milieu of individualism, meism, institutionalism, centrality, power. I think the closer to the City of Rome, the more this was the case (and so ROMAN Catholicism is impacted by this far more than most forms of Eastern Orthodoxy) This obsession became a part of the DNA of Western Christianity. And sadly, it was inherited hook, line and sinker by Protestantism. Luther decried it, Lutheranism speaks MUCH of the COMMUNITY of faith (my congregation goes so far as to change lyrics of songs we sing to avoid all the "I" stuff so often found in western hymnology). But while the institutionalism and power obsessions are found less in Protestantism than in the Roman Church, the "meism" is often just as strong. And it's just as divisive. By the way, the Enlightenment (also a WESTERN experience) only made it worse. And the Awakening (another WESTERN experience) and its emphasis on what SELF feels/experiences also made it worse.



2. Just PART of the problem with the me-ism is how it destroys truth. Sadly, that whole obsessively ROMAN thing with POWER, control, individualism came to mean that truth is entirely irrelevant. It means that all are rendered docilic - they are just to swallow whole WHATEVER the Power One says/teaches because the Power One insists that only the Power One Knows. Self is equated (at least!) with God. POWER of self became the issue, not truth. In early Western Christianity, Truth became entirely irrelevant, all that mattered was the need for all to be quiet, docilic, submissive obedient ones to the Roman Church BECAUSE it itself insisted it itself was The All Powerful Lord and God. Now, yup, the "defense" of that rubric is "Well, God does that! Jesus did that!" Which only shows the level of egoism and power-quest and boldness in equating self with God (and the evading that Jesus actually said we are to follow him NOT because of His claims of self for self but because of the miracles, the Scriptures and the Resurrection). Did this too get passed on to Protestantism? Yes, it often did. Protestant preachers are apt to say "Just swallow whole whatever I'M saying cuz I'M claiming for ME alone that I just know." Where did they inherit this from? The Roman Catholic Church. Wanna know why Ecumenical Councils became entirely irrelevant by the year 800? There it is. And yes, it's still true (a point Luther greatly lamented as he noted the great need for an Ecumenical Council in his own time, while recognizing none had even been possible for 700 years given the milieu that Christianity got from Rome). All this has gone right were it could have been predicted in 800 AD: to relativism, indiividualism and personal experience. For the past 12 years, I have been very focused on this: And the need for humility, community and accountability. George, my Orthodox friend, this is an area where East is better than West and could offer much leadership..... indeed, there have been some (including from Lutheranism) that have gone East for this very reason, and I do understand that. I still hold to the Lutheran response, but I see the appeal to the Orthodox one..... and I do greatly admire Orthodoxy for better resisting all this and those in the West. And it is a major part for my I left the RCC. My Greek Orthodox friend passionately believes that IF I had gone to an Orthodox church rather than a Lutheran church at that critical time in my life..... if Orthodox had reached out to me rather than Lutherans, she believed I'd be an Orthodox priest right now, lol. We all have our paths.....



Pax Christi


- Josiah



.
 
Last edited:

Lamb

God's Lil Lamb
Community Team
Administrator
Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2015
Messages
31,568
Age
57
Gender
Female
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
I don't think we can blame Rome for mankind wanting to focus on the "me". I think because of the fall that it's going to predominate as man's focus. Man is very self-centered.

You're right, Josiah, that in the bible we see how they were more community oriented than people are today. They thought more of the group than of self but not always. David wasn't thinking of the community when he lusted after Bathsheba.

There is another thread I bumped up just now that bill started a long time back asking what the biggest problem is in churches. I agreed with Hammster that the Gospel not being preached is the biggest problem. We have substitute gospels now that focus on the "me" instead of the Christ. What happened to Jesus in the church?
 

MoreCoffee

Well-known member
Valued Contributor
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Messages
19,115
Location
Western Australia
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Catholic
Political Affiliation
Moderate
Marital Status
Single
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
I don't think we can blame Rome for mankind wanting to focus on the "me". ...

It is a sign of the times. Part of the "Me" in this me-theology. It preserves the ME by pretending that somebody/something OTHER is the reason for all of one's own failings. No one ought to think they will find a path out of Me Theology going in that direction.
 

Josiah

simul justus et peccator
Valued Contributor
Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 12, 2015
Messages
13,647
Gender
Male
Religious Affiliation
Lutheran
Political Affiliation
Conservative
Marital Status
Married
Acceptance of the Trinity & Nicene Creed
Yes
Josiah said:

Two thoughts.....


1. IMO, both Judaism and early Christianity were very corporate. The emphasis was on the PEOPLE of God, the family, the community, the communion, the oikos of God....the Body of Christ. Forgive the grammar, but it was very much "Jesus and WE" (Or God and WE). A very strong sense of community, family. The church is defined in the ancient Creed as "the Communion of Saints." BUT.... Christianity is one of two major religions that was founded in one culture but developed in a VERY different one..... Christianity became ROMAN. I took at upper division course in the History of Ancient Greece and Rome" and if there's one point I got from that, it's the OBSESSION that Rome had with individualism (entirely interlocked with institutionalism, centrality, POWER). I think Christianity became shaped in that milieu of individualism, meism, institutionalism, centrality, power. I think the closer to the City of Rome, the more this was the case (and so ROMAN Catholicism is impacted by this far more than most forms of Eastern Orthodoxy) This obsession became a part of the DNA of Western Christianity. And sadly, it was inherited hook, line and sinker by Protestantism. Luther decried it, Lutheranism speaks MUCH of the COMMUNITY of faith (my congregation goes so far as to change lyrics of songs we sing to avoid all the "I" stuff so often found in western hymnology). But while the institutionalism and power obsessions are found less in Protestantism than in the Roman Church, the "me-ism" is often just as strong. And it's just as divisive. By the way, the Enlightenment (also a WESTERN experience) only made it worse. And the Awakening (another WESTERN experience) and its emphasis on what SELF feels/experiences also made it worse.



2. Just PART of the problem with the me-ism is how it destroys truth. Sadly, that whole obsessively ROMAN thing with POWER, control, individualism came to mean that truth is entirely irrelevant. It means that all are rendered docilic - they are just to swallow whole WHATEVER the Power One says/teaches because the Power One insists that only the Power One Knows. Self is equated (at least!) with God. POWER of self became the issue, not truth. In early Western Christianity, Truth became entirely irrelevant, all that mattered was the need for all to be quiet, docilic, submissive obedient ones to the Roman Church BECAUSE it itself insisted it itself was The All Powerful Lord and God. Now, yup, the "defense" of that rubric is "Well, God does that! Jesus did that!" Which only shows the level of egoism and power-quest and boldness in equating self with God (and the evading that Jesus actually said we are to follow him NOT because of His claims of self for self but because of the miracles, the Scriptures and the Resurrection). Did this too get passed on to Protestantism? Yes, it often did. Protestant preachers are apt to say "Just swallow whole whatever I'M saying cuz I'M claiming for ME alone that I just know." Where did they inherit this from? The Roman Catholic Church. Wanna know why Ecumenical Councils became entirely irrelevant by the year 800? There it is. And yes, it's still true (a point Luther greatly lamented as he noted the great need for an Ecumenical Council in his own time, while recognizing none had even been possible for 700 years given the milieu that Christianity got from Rome). All this has gone right were it could have been predicted in 800 AD: to relativism, indiividualism and personal experience. For the past 12 years, I have been very focused on this: And the need for humility, community and accountability. George, my Orthodox friend, this is an area where East is better than West and could offer much leadership..... indeed, there have been some (including from Lutheranism) that have gone East for this very reason, and I do understand that. I still hold to the Lutheran response, but I see the appeal to the Orthodox one..... and I do greatly admire Orthodoxy for better resisting all this and those in the West. And it is a major part for my I left the RCC. My Greek Orthodox friend passionately believes that IF I had gone to an Orthodox church rather than a Lutheran church at that critical time in my life..... if Orthodox had reached out to me rather than Lutherans, she believed I'd be an Orthodox priest right now, lol. We all have our paths.....



Pax Christi


- Josiah



I don't think we can blame Rome for mankind wanting to focus on the "me". I think because of the fall that it's going to predominate as man's focus. Man is very self-centered.


Then we somewhat disagree.


I think that early Christianity reveals a strong sense of community, humility and accountability. But Christianity moved and became not only under the influence of Rome but actually became a part of The Roman Empire. I took an upper division course in Roman History and Rome was OBSESSED (to a radical extreme) with individualism, institutionalism, centrality, power, control, "top down"... and it created a denomination in its own image. IMO, this had a huge impact on Christianity. And as I've discussed this with my Greek Orthodox friend, she notes this is a major issue for the East as perhaps its biggest problem with the Roman Church and she has shown me that while this impacted Eastern Christianity too, it has been much less so.


And as I stressed, I'm NOT suggesting Protestantism is much better!! This is an unfortunate quality Protestantism largely inherited from the Roman Catholic denomination (to variant degrees). I also took an upper division History course called "Revolution." We studied many (going back to Rome), including the French, American and later Russian revolutions. ONE of the things I learned from this is that revolution TENDS to "overshoot" and not infrequently ends up establishing something just as bad as what it revolted against, they tend to go "full circle" in many ways. The Reformation could be thought of as a kind of revolution (although I'd prefer "correction") and I think Luther himself lived long enough to see how among some it was "overshooting" and going full circle as he rebuked some radical leaders. I look at some of modern "Evangelicalism" and in some ways, it seems worse to me than the Catholicism that Luther and Calvin reacted to. This is one of them, the return to the strong "me-ism" that so disturbed Luther and Calvin. But, again, I think ALL Protestantism (including Lutheranism) unfortunately inherited more from Catholicism than we tend to see and admit - most good, some not.




You're right, Josiah, that in the bible we see how they were more community oriented than people are today. They thought more of the group than of self but not always. David wasn't thinking of the community when he lusted after Bathsheba.

There is another thread I bumped up just now that bill started a long time back asking what the biggest problem is in churches. I agreed with Hammster that the Gospel not being preached is the biggest problem. We have substitute gospels now that focus on the "me" instead of the Christ. What happened to Jesus in the church?


Ahha.



Pax Christi



- Josiah
 
Top Bottom