Is Obedience a Condition of Salvation?

[Michael]

Obedience is absolutely necessary

Just wanted to clear up some apparent confusion regarding whether God requires “Obedience” from us if we are to enter into the fullness of the promises of God and inherit Eternal Salvation.

The hardest Truth for many to accept today seems to be Heb 5:9, where the Spirit informs us that the Lord Jesus, after He was proven faithful by His obedience and “made perfect, He became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey Him.” (Heb 5:9)

Do we need to obey the commands of God given through Christ? Yes. To deny this is to deny Christ, who clearly taught His disciples -

“Whoever has My commands and keeps (obeys) them is the one who loves Me. The one who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I too will love them and show Myself to them.”
22 Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, “But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?”
23 Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves Me will obey My teaching. My Father will love them, and We will come to them and make our home with them. 24 Anyone who does not love Me will not obey My teaching. These words you hear are not My own; they belong to the Father who sent Me.” – John 14:21-24


Can we really claim to love Jesus if we do not obey Him? Jesus said we cannot, unless we obey -

“Whoever says, “I know Him,” but does not do what He commands is a liar, and the Truth is not in that person. 5 But if anyone obeys His word, love for God is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in Him: 6 Whoever claims to live in Him must live as Jesus did.” - 1John 2:4-6

I could expound for days on this Truth, but I’ll let the Word of God speak for itself here. For the passages we see here cannot be refuted, ignored or dismissed.

As well, the unchanging Word tells that “God gives the Holy Spirit to those who obey Him.” – Acts 5:32

If we are not striving to “obey” His commands, then whose spirit is it we are really listening too?


Again, Jesus declared, “Blessed rather are those who hear the Word of God and obey it.” – Luke 11:28

One of the greatest promises of Jesus is reserved for the obedient - Eternal Life.

“Very truly I tell you, whoever obeys My word will never see death.” – John 8:51

When Jesus commissioned the Eleven to go forth and make disciples, He instructed them clearly -
“Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.” – Matt 28:19-20

Paul taught exactly the same Truth as Jesus, telling us that if we are not obeying Christ, then we are actually still “slaves to sin.”

“Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?” – Rom 6:16

And yes, this applies specifically to "Christians." Remember Jesus said, "You are my friends IF you obey my commandments." (John 15:14)

And Paul confirms again what Jesus taught about the disobedient not receiving “eternal life” -

“He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might” – 2Thess 1:8-9

Much modern doctrine bases salvation on mere mental assent, a confession of the facts of Jesus’ birth, death and Resurrection. However, one can do that without “obeying the Gospel”, which is receiving, believing, and obeying ALL that He has commanded. God will not judge our “belief” in that Day, but rather what we actually DID with what He gave us. Again, were we “obedient” to His commands?

“For it is time for judgment to begin with God’s household; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God?” – 1Pet 4:7

If we are unable to receive these many passages, then can we really claim to “believe”?

……

Now that we have seen the clear Truth in the Scripture... what will be our response?


“At this they covered their ears and, yelling at the top of their voices, they all rushed at him, 58 dragged him out of the city and began to stone him.” – Acts 7:57-58

“some mocked, while others said, “We will hear you again on this matter.” – Acts 17:32

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[Lamb]

Let's clear this up completely. Is faith a gift? Is eternal life a gift? Is forgiveness a gift?

If you answer no then you aren't relying on God but yourself. You can't win what God gives freely by grace through faith.

Jesus met the conditions necessary and God gives faith to trust in Him.

Satan wants us to trust in self and not Jesus. He lured Adam and Eve to focus on self and he continues to lure man to navel gaze since then.

 

[Michael]

Let's clear this up completely. Is faith a gift? Is eternal life a gift? Is forgiveness a gift?

If you answer no then you aren't relying on God but yourself. You can't win what God gives freely by grace through faith.

Jesus met the conditions necessary and God gives faith to trust in Him.

Satan wants us to trust in self and not Jesus. He lured Adam and Eve to focus on self and he continues to lure man to navel gaze since then.

I DID clear it up! :amen:

Can you address the passages I reference, or will you continue to refuse the Gospel as Jesus and the Apostles taught?

The biggest problem is that ALL the verses you quote to me are included in and support the doctrine the Lord has given me to teach; whereas most of the New Testament must be disregarded to cling to the message so many believe today, that repentance and obedience are not necessary.

And so I will continue to preach! :bible: reach:

 

[Josiah]

Just wanted to clear up some apparent confusion regarding whether God requires “Obedience” from us

Who is "us" (I ask YET AGAIN)?

If "us" are Christians - the justified, the SAVED - then you are in the wrong thread, you are supplying an opinion about a DIFFERENT issue than the one before us and thus are mandating confusion, your persistence in opinionating about a DIFFERENT issue is the cause of the persistent confusion.

If "us" are dead, unregenerate, atheistic, enemies of God - the unjustified, the unsaved - then you are repudiating Christianity and making a mockery of Jesus and the Gospel, and frankly it is not unwise to consider yours to be the voice of the devil.

inherit Eternal

By definition, an inheritance is a GIFT and never earned or accomplished. SOMEONE ELSE earns it and GIVES it to another.

Do we need to obey the commands of God given through Christ? Yes.

Your confusion of Law and Gospel.... your confusion of justification with sanctification... your confusion of JESUS with yourself... has caused you to spin a verse in a very odd way: to mean simply that Jesus accomplished nothing, Jesus saves no one and that everyone is doomed to hell. You see, my friend, NO ONE OBEYS (although Christians are CALLED to that!!!!!!! - again you don't know the difference between law and gospel, self and Jesus). NO ONE IS GOOD but God alone (and He was - FOR US!!!!). No one is righteous (obeying), no, not even one (except Jesus - and He was for us!!!), if one claims to be without sin (claims to obey) HE IS A LIAR. Friend, if you claim you are obeying Him, then the Bible says you are lying and are a fool... and of course, you are simply rendering Jesus a sick joke, you are mocking Him, you are declaring Him NOT the Savior since there's nothing for Him to save in your case.

“Whoever says, “I know Him,” but does not do what He commands is a liar, and the Truth is not in that person. 5 But if anyone obeys His word, love for God is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in Him: 6 Whoever claims to live in Him must live as Jesus did.”- 1John 2:4-6

Yup. So in your pure works-righteousness, merciless, graceless, gospel-less religion, there is just Law. Do you keep it, do you obey? Are you as perfect as God is? Are you as holy as God is? Do you love as much as Jesus did on the Cross? Do you keep all 614 laws perfectly 24/7? IF so, then you obey - and according to you, are saved (although FROM WHAT I've not a clue). But if you claim that, the Bible says you are a liar. I have a hunch your wife would say so, too, lol.

If we are not striving to “obey” His commands, then whose spirit is it we are really listening too?

1. Who is "we?" If "we" are Christians (the saved, the justified, the children of God) then you are in the wrong thread. And you are knowingly and persistently doing all you can to confuse and to mock Jesus.

2. You suddenly changed the subject. The verses you horribly misuse say nothing of "STRIVE." And how much "strive?" How do you know that last Monday at 2:14 PM you were "striving" ENOUGH? How does ANYONE ever know if they are striving ENOUGH? Isn't your horrible confusing of Law and Gospel simply created a terror since in your twist, no one knows if they are saved or not - and y0ur church could NEVER do a Christian funeral since it would be impossible for ANYONE in your church to know if this person strived ENOUGH? You CAN know that Jesus did.... and that this person had faith in that SAVIOR.... but it's impossible for anyone to know - for self or another - if they strived ENOUGH.

3. You need to make up your mind. In your Law Religion, are the dead saved by striving ENOUGH (although it's IMPOSSIBLE to know how much is "ENOUGH" or is anyone has performed "ENOUGH") OR is that dead person saved by being obedient (which no one is, except Jesus)? Hum.... Maybe the problem is in your confused, Law Religion?

When Jesus commissioned the Eleven to go forth and make disciples, He instructed them clearly - “Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.”– Matt 28:19-20

1. The 11 were ALREADY saved, justified, Christians.

2. None of the 11 obeyed - they all were sinners.

3. Yes, we are to teach Christians to be morally perfect and totally loving and Christ-like and as loving as Christ. Yup. Ahha. A different subject for another thread. But a Christian doesn't become a Christian by being sinless.

“Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?”– Rom 6:16

1. Paul is writing to CHRISTIANS, not to unregenerate atheists; he is talking about what CHRISTIANS should do, not how death atheists become saved.

2. YES, YES, YES, one again, still another time, YES... THE JUSTIFIED, THE SAVED, THE CHRISTIAN... is called to much - obedience/holiness/moral perfection/divine love and much, much more. But this is not how one is justifed (making Jesus a joke), this is what the justified are to do. But this is a subject for another day and thread, if you are speaking to that, then again, still again, one more time, please read this; YOU ARE IN THE WRONG THREAD and your deliberate, persistent confusion is the cause of the confusion and the reason why many of us will not tolerate your repudiation of the Gospel, your rejection of Christianity.

one can do that without “obeying the Gospel”, which is receiving, believing, and obeying ALL that He has commanded.

Since you destroy the Gospel, that leaves you only with Law. And you are right: Are thus are condemned. In your Law Religion, your Christ-less and Gospel-less religion, all are headed for hell. "No one is good but God alone." "No one does what it right." "No one is rightious" "If you claim to be without sin, you are a liar." The same St. Paul that you so horribly misuse said "I am the CHIEF of sinners."

God will not judge our “belief” in that Day, but rather what we actually DID with what He gave us.

1. Perhaps the biggest repudiation of Christianity I've ever read from one who claims to be a Christian.


2. So, Jesus is a joke, you've made a mockery of Jesus, you completely deny Him as the SAVIOR (you don't even have Him as a Helper or Offerer or Door Opener as some Christian heretics have done, you repudiate faith entirely). You have simply trashed Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. No wonder you cannot post in the CHRISTIAN forum here at CH.








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[Lamb]

This answers all your issues, Michael. Look to the Lord.

True Repentance and Obedience Look to the Lord

"True repentance says like David said, “In you, LORD my God, I put my trust. I trust in you.” True repentance looks to the LORD at all times and says, “My eyes are ever on the LORD, for only he will release my feet from the snare.” True repentance realizes that we can’t make a single one of those sins of our past go away, and humbly calls to the LORD, “Remember, LORD, your great mercy and love, for they are from of old. Do not remember the sins of my youth and my rebellious ways; according to your love remember me, for you, LORD, are good.” True repentance desperately pleads, “For the sake of your name, LORD, forgive my iniquity, though it is great.”

Do you see the difference there? True repentance isn’t about anything I am or I’ve done or will do. No, the only thing that we contribute here is the rebellious ways and the great iniquity. But our plea to the LORD is based on his great mercy and love, on his goodness, for the sake of his name. It’s all about who God is. He’s the one we look to and cling to. He’s the one we put our trust in, put our hope in, and take refuge in – the LORD who is our God and Savior.

That’s the LORD to whom we plead, “Show me your ways, LORD. Teach me your paths. Guide me in your truth and teach me.” And through his Word, he does just that. He teaches us what true obedience is. When people came to Jesus and asked, “’What must we do to do the works God requires?’ Jesus answered, ‘The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.’” (John 6) That’s not a work at all. That’s just trusting that God has already done all the work. That’s true obedience – believing in the one he has sent – believing in Jesus.

He’s the promised descendant of David, the God and Savior of David, in whom David put his hope all day long. Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. He’s the LORD’s way. Jesus is our God and Savior, the Son of God in whom the Father was pleased and who had that perfect relationship with him for you. He bore our sins, as great as they are, for his own sake, because of his great mercy and love. Jesus took all your affliction, all your distress, and all your anguish as he took all the sins of your youth, all of your rebellious ways, and he paid for them in full in his one perfect and complete work of satisfaction. He satisfied the justice and wrath of God for you on that cross.

And because of Jesus’ work, the LORD no longer remembers those sins of your youth – none of them. He no longer remembers those rebellious ways – not a single one. He remembers you according to his great mercy and love, according to what Jesus has done. He remembers you as his forgiven child.

True obedience looks to the LORD and simply trusts that this is most certainly true – that the LORD has released our feet from the snare of sin through Jesus. And he did it freely, for his sake. And having been set free, we are free to walk in the LORD’s ways. Out of love and thanks, we love to learn from the LORD so we can follow his ways. And the LORD is happy to teach us. He loves instructing us. As David wrote, “Good and upright is the LORD; therefore he instructs sinners in his ways. He guides the humble in what is right and teaches them his way.” Through his Word, he instructs us in the ways we should choose as we live a life of thanksgiving and praise to him in true obedience.

Do you see the difference there? True obedience isn’t about following God’s laws because we have to, to try to make up for our sins, or to try to earn forgiveness or a right relationship with God – all the while being afraid of God and never knowing if we’ve done enough to please him. But just like true repentance, true obedience is all about trusting the LORD and the great mercy and love he has shown to us. And, in response to all he’s done for us, it’s our privilege, it’s our joy, it’s our freedom to put God’s will into action in our lives. It’s what we want to do.

So true obedience to God is not a burden, but a blessing. How wonderful is it that we get to walk on the path the LORD has prepared for us, knowing that he will bless us on that way. For as David says, “All the ways of the LORD are loving and faithful toward those who keep the demands of his covenant.” That promise is ours as we live in true obedience – looking to the LORD and his way, believing and trusting in Jesus, the one he has sent." October 19, 2017 2:56 PM by John Derme

 

[Michael]

Who is "us" (I ask YET AGAIN)?

If "us" are Christians - the justified, the SAVED - then you are in the wrong thread, you are supplying an opinion about a DIFFERENT issue than the one before us and thus are mandating confusion, your persistence in opinionating about a DIFFERENT issue is the cause of the persistent confusion.

If "us" are dead, unregenerate, atheistic, enemies of God - the unjustified, the unsaved - then you are repudiating Christianity and making a mockery of Jesus and the Gospel, and frankly it is not unwise to consider yours to be the voice of the devil.







By definition, an inheritance is a GIFT and never earned or accomplished. SOMEONE ELSE earns it and GIVES it to another.









Your confusion of Law and Gospel.... your confusion of justification with sanctification... your confusion of JESUS with yourself... has caused you to spin a verse in a very odd way: to mean simply that Jesus accomplished nothing, Jesus saves no one and that everyone is doomed to hell. You see, my friend, NO ONE OBEYS (although Christians are CALLED to that!!!!!!! - again you don't know the difference between law and gospel, self and Jesus). NO ONE IS GOOD but God alone (and He was - FOR US!!!!). No one is righteous (obeying), no, not even one (except Jesus - and He was for us!!!), if one claims to be without sin (claims to obey) HE IS A LIAR. Friend, if you claim you are obeying Him, then the Bible says you are lying and are a fool... and of course, you are simply rendering Jesus a sick joke, you are mocking Him, you are declaring Him NOT the Savior since there's nothing for Him to save in your case.








Yup. So in your pure works-righteousness, merciless, graceless, gospel-less religion, there is just Law. Do you keep it, do you obey? Are you as perfect as God is? Are you as holy as God is? Do you love as much as Jesus did on the Cross? Do you keep all 614 laws perfectly 24/7? IF so, then you obey - and according to you, are saved (although FROM WHAT I've not a clue). But if you claim that, the Bible says you are a liar. I have a hunch your wife would say so, too, lol.








1. Who is "we?" If "we" are Christians (the saved, the justified, the children of God) then you are in the wrong thread. And you are knowingly and persistently doing all you can to confuse and to mock Jesus.

2. You suddenly changed the subject. The verses you horribly misuse say nothing of "STRIVE." And how much "strive?" How do you know that last Monday at 2:14 PM you were "striving" ENOUGH? How does ANYONE ever know if they are striving ENOUGH? Isn't your horrible confusing of Law and Gospel simply created a terror since in your twist, no one knows if they are saved or not - and y0ur church could NEVER do a Christian funeral since it would be impossible for ANYONE in your church to know if this person strived ENOUGH? You CAN know that Jesus did.... and that this person had faith in that SAVIOR.... but it's impossible for anyone to know - for self or another - if they strived ENOUGH.

3. You need to make up your mind. In your Law Religion, are the dead saved by striving ENOUGH (although it's IMPOSSIBLE to know how much is "ENOUGH" or is anyone has performed "ENOUGH") OR is that dead person saved by being obedient (which no one is, except Jesus)? Hum.... Maybe the problem is in your confused, Law Religion?







1. The 11 were ALREADY saved, justified, Christians.

2. None of the 11 obeyed - they all were sinners.

3. Yes, we are to teach Christians to be morally perfect and totally loving and Christ-like and as loving as Christ. Yup. Ahha. A different subject for another thread. But a Christian doesn't become a Christian by being sinless.








1. Paul is writing to CHRISTIANS, not to unregenerate atheists; he is talking about what CHRISTIANS should do, not how death atheists become saved.

2. YES, YES, YES, one again, still another time, YES... THE JUSTIFIED, THE SAVED, THE CHRISTIAN... is called to much - obedience/holiness/moral perfection/divine love and much, much more. But this is not how one is justifed (making Jesus a joke), this is what the justified are to do. But this is a subject for another day and thread, if you are speaking to that, then again, still again, one more time, please read this; YOU ARE IN THE WRONG THREAD and your deliberate, persistent confusion is the cause of the confusion and the reason why many of us will not tolerate your repudiation of the Gospel, your rejection of Christianity.







Since you destroy the Gospel, that leaves you only with Law. And you are right: Are thus are condemned. In your Law Religion, your Christ-less and Gospel-less religion, all are headed for hell. "No one is good but God alone." "No one does what it right." "No one is rightious" "If you claim to be without sin, you are a liar." The same St. Paul that you so horribly misuse said "I am the CHIEF of sinners."







1. Perhaps the biggest repudiation of Christianity I've ever read from one who claims to be a Christian.


2. So, Jesus is a joke, you've made a mockery of Jesus, you completely deny Him as the SAVIOR (you don't even have Him as a Helper or Offerer or Door Opener as some Christian heretics have done, you repudiate faith entirely). You have simply trashed Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. No wonder you cannot post in the CHRISTIAN forum here at CH.




.

Friend, are you familiar with the following Truth?

"Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation." - Heb 9:28

It appears so many confuse being "saved" from bondage to sin with "eternal salvation." They are not the same. The massive amounts of Scripture I've referenced make that quite clear and undeniable.
The former is because of what Christ Jesus did. The latter will come to those who are obedient to the laws of God given through Christ Jesus. (And no, again, not talking about the Law of Moses here. )

Until the Truth that Jesus is bringing "salvation" ("eternal salvation") to those who have already been "saved" who have been diligent and faithful and obedient in their walk, when He returns is accepted, then what the Lord has given me & others to share will not be understood.

This is not something we, if we are True disciples, should be arguing about. Are we not called to "exhort one another daily"?

I will never stop preaching what the Lord has revealed to me. Everything thrown at me only further supports my doctrine and increases my understanding. Thanks be to God for His faithfulness in answering prayer.

"He who hungers and thirsts for righteousness will be filled."

Peace & Blessings to you & all the saints this New Year.

 

[Josiah]

Who is "us" (I ask YET AGAIN)?

If "us" are Christians - the justified, the SAVED - then you are in the wrong thread, you are supplying an opinion about a DIFFERENT issue than the one before us and thus are mandating confusion, your persistence in opinionating about a DIFFERENT issue is the cause of the persistent confusion.

If "us" are dead, unregenerate, atheistic, enemies of God - the unjustified, the unsaved - then you are repudiating Christianity and making a mockery of Jesus and the Gospel, and frankly it is not unwise to consider yours to be the voice of the devil.







By definition, an inheritance is a GIFT and never earned or accomplished. SOMEONE ELSE earns it and GIVES it to another.









Your confusion of Law and Gospel.... your confusion of justification with sanctification... your confusion of JESUS with yourself... has caused you to spin a verse in a very odd way: to mean simply that Jesus accomplished nothing, Jesus saves no one and that everyone is doomed to hell. You see, my friend, NO ONE OBEYS (although Christians are CALLED to that!!!!!!! - again you don't know the difference between law and gospel, self and Jesus). NO ONE IS GOOD but God alone (and He was - FOR US!!!!). No one is righteous (obeying), no, not even one (except Jesus - and He was for us!!!), if one claims to be without sin (claims to obey) HE IS A LIAR. Friend, if you claim you are obeying Him, then the Bible says you are lying and are a fool... and of course, you are simply rendering Jesus a sick joke, you are mocking Him, you are declaring Him NOT the Savior since there's nothing for Him to save in your case.








Yup. So in your pure works-righteousness, merciless, graceless, gospel-less religion, there is just Law. Do you keep it, do you obey? Are you as perfect as God is? Are you as holy as God is? Do you love as much as Jesus did on the Cross? Do you keep all 614 laws perfectly 24/7? IF so, then you obey - and according to you, are saved (although FROM WHAT I've not a clue). But if you claim that, the Bible says you are a liar. I have a hunch your wife would say so, too, lol.








1. Who is "we?" If "we" are Christians (the saved, the justified, the children of God) then you are in the wrong thread. And you are knowingly and persistently doing all you can to confuse and to mock Jesus.


2. You suddenly changed the subject. The verses you horribly misuse say nothing of "STRIVE." And how much "strive?" How do you know that last Monday at 2:14 PM you were "striving" ENOUGH? How does ANYONE ever know if they are striving ENOUGH? Isn't your horrible confusing of Law and Gospel simply created a terror since in your twist, no one knows if they are saved or not - and y0ur church could NEVER do a Christian funeral since it would be impossible for ANYONE in your church to know if this person strived ENOUGH? You CAN know that Jesus did.... and that this person had faith in that SAVIOR.... but it's impossible for anyone to know - for self or another - if they strived ENOUGH.


3. You need to make up your mind. In your Law Religion, are the dead saved by striving ENOUGH (although it's IMPOSSIBLE to know how much is "ENOUGH" or is anyone has performed "ENOUGH") OR is that dead person saved by being obedient (which no one is, except Jesus)? Hum.... Maybe the problem is in your confused, Law Religion?







1. The 11 were ALREADY saved, justified, Christians.

2. None of the 11 obeyed - they all were sinners.

3. Yes, we are to teach Christians to be morally perfect and totally loving and Christ-like and as loving as Christ. Yup. Ahha. A different subject for another thread. But a Christian doesn't become a Christian by being sinless.








1. Paul is writing to CHRISTIANS, not to unregenerate atheists; he is talking about what CHRISTIANS should do, not how death atheists become saved.


2. YES, YES, YES, one again, still another time, YES... THE JUSTIFIED, THE SAVED, THE CHRISTIAN... is called to much - obedience/holiness/moral perfection/divine love and much, much more. But this is not how one is justifed (making Jesus a joke), this is what the justified are to do. But this is a subject for another day and thread, if you are speaking to that, then again, still again, one more time, please read this; YOU ARE IN THE WRONG THREAD and your deliberate, persistent confusion is the cause of the confusion and the reason why many of us will not tolerate your repudiation of the Gospel, your rejection of Christianity.







Since you destroy the Gospel, that leaves you only with Law. And you are right: Are thus are condemned. In your Law Religion, your Christ-less and Gospel-less religion, all are headed for hell. "No one is good but God alone." "No one does what it right." "No one is rightious" "If you claim to be without sin, you are a liar." The same St. Paul that you so horribly misuse said "I am the CHIEF of sinners."







1. Perhaps the biggest repudiation of Christianity I've ever read from one who claims to be a Christian.


2. So, Jesus is a joke, you've made a mockery of Jesus, you completely deny Him as the SAVIOR (you don't even have Him as a Helper or Offerer or Door Opener as some Christian heretics have done, you repudiate faith entirely). You have simply trashed Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. No wonder you cannot post in the CHRISTIAN forum here at CH



.

The former is because of what Christ Jesus did. The latter will come to those who are obedient to the laws of God given through Christ Jesus. (And no, again, not talking about the Law of Moses here.

So.... now you claim no one needs to be obedient to the Law, just to what JESUS said. You throw out the Old Testament and all of the NT except for the red letter stuff in the first 4 books of the NT. Weird, but understood, Okay. Matthew 5:48. You must be perfect, as perfect as God is. The Greek word means to be morally PERFECT, to be without sin. So, in your gospel-less, mercy-less, grace-less, cross-less, pure law religion, it all hinges on whether YOU are sinless 24/7 in thought, word and deed. And whether you make Scripture wrong when it states, "no one is good, not even one." "If you claim to be without sin, you are a liar." And you declare that St. Paul is in hell since he wrote, "I am the chief of sinners."

Good luck with being morally perfect, sinless - and thus having no need of salvation, forgiveness, mercy, grace, Christ, the Cross, God....

I will never stop preaching what the Lord has revealed to me. Everything thrown at me only further supports my doctrine and increases my understanding. Thanks be to God for His faithfulness in answering prayer.

Even if an angel should preach a Gospel other than mine, let him be accursed. I (and hopefully others) will never cease to proclaim Christianity every time you deny Christ as Savior and repudiate the Gospel.

I wonder about why God suddenly has chosen YOU personally to suddenly denounce Christianity and the Gospel (after 2000 years)? What is it about YOU, that God has risen YOU personally up to denounce the faith? Personally, I think those who point us to the mirror rather than the Cross, those who preach that Law saves rather than Christ, I think those voices are the devil.

all the saints

Since no one is sinless, according to your gospel-less religion, there are no saints. We are saints because we are FORGIVEN via the Grace of God (GETTING what we do NOT earn, do NOT deserve, have NOT achieved) through the perfect/obedient life of Jesus, the vicarious/obedient death of Jesus, the victorious resurrection of Jesus (of JESUS who IS THE SAVIOR - and thus who SAVES) which we apprehend via the divine gift of faith (reliance). No one is a saint by their own obedience because no one obeys (except Jesus).





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[Michael]

So.... now you claim no one needs to be obedient to the Law, just to what JESUS said. You throw out the Old Testament and all of the NT except for the red letter stuff in the first 4 books of the NT. Weird, but understood, Okay. Matthew 5:48. You must be perfect, as perfect as God is. The Greek word means to be morally PERFECT, to be without sin. So, in your gospel-less, mercy-less, grace-less, cross-less, pure law religion, it all hinges on whether YOU are sinless 24/7 in thought, word and deed. And whether you make Scripture wrong when it states, "no one is good, not even one." "If you claim to be without sin, you are a liar." And you declare that St. Paul is in hell since he wrote, "I am the chief of sinners."

Good luck with being morally perfect, sinless - and thus having no need of salvation, forgiveness, mercy, grace, Christ, the Cross, God....







Even if an angel should preach a Gospel other than mine, let him be accursed. I (and hopefully others) will never cease to proclaim Christianity every time you deny Christ as Savior and repudiate the Gospel.

I wonder about why God suddenly has chosen YOU personally to suddenly denounce Christianity and the Gospel (after 2000 years)? What is it about YOU, that God has risen YOU personally up to denounce the faith? Personally, I think those who point us to the mirror rather than the Cross, those who preach that Law saves rather than Christ, I think those voices are the devil.






Since no one is sinless, according to your gospel-less religion, there are no saints. We are saints because we are FORGIVEN via the Grace of God (GETTING what we do NOT earn, do NOT deserve, have NOT achieved) through the perfect/obedient life of Jesus, the vicarious/obedient death of Jesus, the victorious resurrection of Jesus (of JESUS who IS THE SAVIOR - and thus who SAVES) which we apprehend via the divine gift of faith (reliance). No one is a saint by their own obedience because no one obeys (except Jesus).





.

Son, our communication is over. You utter pure nonsense, and accuse me of things I never said. I have no time for foolishness, or those who refuse to receive Truth.

Man, I can see why God grieved over the stubborn-hearted, rebellious children, and continuously brought judgment upon them.

I will reply to you no more.

 

[Michael]

Just wanted to clear up some apparent confusion regarding whether God requires “Obedience” from us if we are to enter into the fullness of the promises of God and inherit Eternal Salvation.

The hardest Truth for many to accept today seems to be Heb 5:9, where the Spirit informs us that the Lord Jesus, after He was proven faithful by His obedience and “made perfect, He became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey Him.” (Heb 5:9)

Do we need to obey the commands of God given through Christ? Yes. To deny this is to deny Christ, who clearly taught His disciples -

“Whoever has My commands and keeps (obeys) them is the one who loves Me. The one who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I too will love them and show Myself to them.”
22 Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, “But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?”
23 Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves Me will obey My teaching. My Father will love them, and We will come to them and make our home with them. 24 Anyone who does not love Me will not obey My teaching. These words you hear are not My own; they belong to the Father who sent Me.” – John 14:21-24


Can we really claim to love Jesus if we do not obey Him? Jesus said we cannot, unless we obey -

“Whoever says, “I know Him,” but does not do what He commands is a liar, and the Truth is not in that person. 5 But if anyone obeys His word, love for God is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in Him: 6 Whoever claims to live in Him must live as Jesus did.” - 1John 2:4-6

I could expound for days on this Truth, but I’ll let the Word of God speak for itself here. For the passages we see here cannot be refuted, ignored or dismissed.

As well, the unchanging Word tells that “God gives the Holy Spirit to those who obey Him.” – Acts 5:32

If we are not striving to “obey” His commands, then whose spirit is it we are really listening too?


Again, Jesus declared, “Blessed rather are those who hear the Word of God and obey it.” – Luke 11:28

One of the greatest promises of Jesus is reserved for the obedient - Eternal Life.

“Very truly I tell you, whoever obeys My word will never see death.” – John 8:51

When Jesus commissioned the Eleven to go forth and make disciples, He instructed them clearly -
“Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.” – Matt 28:19-20

Paul taught exactly the same Truth as Jesus, telling us that if we are not obeying Christ, then we are actually still “slaves to sin.”

“Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?” – Rom 6:16

And yes, this applies specifically to "Christians." Remember Jesus said, "You are my friends IF you obey my commandments." (John 15:14)

And Paul confirms again what Jesus taught about the disobedient not receiving “eternal life” -

“He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might” – 2Thess 1:8-9

Much modern doctrine bases salvation on mere mental assent, a confession of the facts of Jesus’ birth, death and Resurrection. However, one can do that without “obeying the Gospel”, which is receiving, believing, and obeying ALL that He has commanded. God will not judge our “belief” in that Day, but rather what we actually DID with what He gave us. Again, were we “obedient” to His commands?

“For it is time for judgment to begin with God’s household; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God?” – 1Pet 4:7

If we are unable to receive these many passages, then can we really claim to “believe”?

……

Now that we have seen the clear Truth in the Scripture... what will be our response?


“At this they covered their ears and, yelling at the top of their voices, they all rushed at him, 58 dragged him out of the city and began to stone him.” – Acts 7:57-58

“some mocked, while others said, “We will hear you again on this matter.” – Acts 17:32

.

Curious if any who think my interpretation of theology concerning the relationship between Obedience and Salvation care to address the multitude of passages I've referenced above and elsewhere in this thread.

The verses continually thrown at me in attempted rebuttal I already know very well, and they actually support my doctrine. I'm more interested in how my accusers handle the many passages I have quoted directly, and in context, from Jesus and the Apostles.


And yes, Jesus is my Lord and Savior. And if I am obedient to His Word and God's commands, all that the Father has desired for my life will be fulfilled.

So, please, I am open to mature dialog. In the churches in which I minister, we have wonderful, fruitful discussions on these important topics, even though not all agree with me. As, I say often, "It's okay to learn something new."

Peace & Blessings to all who are "denying themselves, picking up their cross daily and following Jesus."

The time is too short and too precious for foolishness.

:amen:

 

[Andrew]

Curious if any who think my interpretation of theology concerning the relationship between Obedience and Salvation care to address the multitude of passages I've referenced above and elsewhere in this thread.

The verses continually thrown at me in attempted rebuttal I already know very well, and they actually support my doctrine. I'm more interested in how my accusers handle the many passages I have quoted directly, and in context, from Jesus and the Apostles.


And yes, Jesus is my Lord and Savior. And if I am obedient to His Word and God's commands, all that the Father has desired for my life will be fulfilled.

So, please, I am open to mature dialog. In the churches in which I minister, we have wonderful, fruitful discussions on these important topics, even though not all agree with me. As, I say often, "It's okay to learn something new."

Peace & Blessings to all who are "denying themselves, picking up their cross daily and following Jesus."

The time is too short and too precious for foolishness.

:amen:

Theologians have been bumping heads since the beginning, you are just one of the many

Ever heard of Les Feldick? He does an amazing job at simplifying the scripture, it's not rocket science, very simple but also worthwhile to read scripture for yourself, bibles studies are good and all but Les never even states his denomination and even I can't guess on what he belongs to.
Yet he does wise with his studies, if you want to know what early Christians believed, just read the bible without bias and take it literally to heart what it says.. I believe we are strangers of this world of babylon and have been in the end times since acts.. As Babylon grows our faith remains the same now as it was from the beginning.
Thomas for example needed to see Christ's risen before he could accept Christ's resurrection and atonement... but blessed are they who have not seen Him but have believed!
Peter knew Jesus and still denied Him 3 times and was forgiven three times..
Peter even KNEW he would sin 3 times that night because Jesus told Him, Peter had to believe Him to feel conviction when the rooster crowed!
We aren't perfect and theology shows us this, why so many denominations? ..well, because we aren't perfect
A brother here once explained to me that God is not making me walk a tight rope over the pits of hell and willing to flick me off as soon as I slip up... If work based salvation is true, well I just pray He forgives me and lifts me up when I do fall, but to say He will abandon me for dead because I'm not perfect and misbehave is just not Scripture.. I'm a new man, before I was unaware of Gods love for me, but now I am and God has given me more than any preaching has ever done, this applies also to His Church, we ARE blessed to be God's love, so let us never forget that and let us put away with foolish debating and look towards the Cross of Salvation for comfort during our guaranteed-to-be tribulations of this world, for behold He has overcome this world.

 

[Lamb]

Son, our communication is over. You utter pure nonsense, and accuse me of things I never said. I have no time for foolishness, or those who refuse to receive Truth.

Man, I can see why God grieved over the stubborn-hearted, rebellious children, and continuously brought judgment upon them.

I will reply to you no more.

Josiah preaches about the Savior. The Christ. The Messiah. Judgment will be in his favor since he believes that Jesus is God who came to earth, lived the perfectly obediently life WE COULD NOT and died on the cross for the forgiveness of our sins. You preach about self and push aside that Christ and boast about it every chance you get. In another post you even mentioned that you don't refer to yourself as a Christian and that's probably a very appropriate thing since you don't trust in Christ for your salvation/eternal life with Him.

 

[Josiah]

Curious if any who think my interpretation of theology concerning the relationship between Obedience and Salvation care to address the multitude of passages I've referenced above and elsewhere in this thread.

This thread is about BECOMING a Christian and asks if the unregenerate, dead, atheistic, enemy of God who lacks the Holy Spirit must DO things in order to become a Christian or if Jesus saves them. You have persistently argued that such a dead man MUST do..... you just are all over the map on what that is. You say he must be OBEDIENT - but you say to the Law and then just to the sayings of Jesus in the red letters of the first 4 books of the NT (like Matthew 5:48), you use that word "obedient" a LOT without being clear about the athetistic/dead/unsaved person being obedient to WHAT? Then you say he only needs to "STRIVE" to be obedient to (you seem confused on that point) without seeming to know how much that unchristian must "STRIVE" - what is striving ENOUGH to earn salvation. Your law-based, Christ-less religion is full of confusion and terror.


[MENTION=1032]Michael[/MENTION]

You make some valid points but horribly misapply them, all with the unavoidable effect of destroying Christianity, making Jesus just a joke, and declaring that self saves self by self being "obedient" (to what, you don't seem to know) ENOUGH (how much is enough you don't seem to know). For salvation, you demand all ignore the Cross and instead, the unregenerate look to the mirror for salvation.... all based on much confusion and uncertainty... all to denounce any role of God or grace or mercy or forgiveness or Jesus or the Cross or the Resurrection or the Holy Spirit cuz unregenerate atheists can "OBEY" Matthew 5:48 "enough." IMO, if you are hearing some "voice" telling "YOU" (personally and individually) that message, as you claim, I strongly suspect that's Satan you are hearing, not God.






.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

Josiah preaches about the Savior. The Christ. The Messiah. Judgment will be in his favor since he believes that Jesus is God who came to earth, lived the perfectly obediently life WE COULD NOT and died on the cross for the forgiveness of our sins. You preach about self and push aside that Christ and boast about it every chance you get. In another post you even mentioned that you don't refer to yourself as a Christian and that's probably a very appropriate thing since you don't trust in Christ for your salvation/eternal life with Him.

Those are some major accusations. The poster has not denied Christ, but has quoted him in support of his argument. It doesn't make it necessarily correct, but it does support the credibility of the poster to state what the word actually says.

Whether right or wrong in our judgment of scripture, no Christian ought to be so self-righteous as to judge the potential damnation of another and whether a brother or sister is a Christian. Remember, that even the LCMS identifies "self-righteousness" as evidence of "developing a false and proud 'security'". What else is the quoted post other than self-righteous judgment of another?

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

As to the OP, I don't disagree with the view that we are to be obedient to the word, and all that Christ has commanded us. However, obedience is the result, the evidence of salvation - Christ in us and working through us. As the Apostle said, we have no room to boast, but must do our work in humility, recognizing that the work we do is not of ourselves. Remember the words of Christ to Philip:

The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

And so it is Christ, in us, doing the work

 

[Josiah]

[MENTION=55]ImaginaryDay2[/MENTION]
[MENTION=11]Lämmchen[/MENTION]

Those are some major accusations. The poster has not denied Christ, but has quoted him in support of his argument. It doesn't make it necessarily correct, but it does support the credibility of the poster to state what the word actually says.

Whether right or wrong in our judgment of scripture, no Christian ought to be so self-righteous as to judge the potential damnation of another and whether a brother or sister is a Christian

With all due respect, when some of us proclaim the Gospel, he DOES rebuke us for not knowing Scripture. I ONCE thought the poster was simply unaware of the thread he was posting in, THINKING this is a thread about what CHRISTIANS (those saved) are called to do - in which case, he would be making some valid arugments (I'd DISAGREE with the application he makes, but your observation would be valid, my friend). But that's simply not the case; he was been informed over and over that the issue here has nothing whatsoever to do with what Christians should or should not do - concerning anything at any time, as Law or Gospel - it has to do with becoming a Christian, with initial or "narrow" justification - and he is fully aware of that. But he continues to omit Jesus, grace, mercy, forgivness, God, the Holy Spirit, the Cross..... and instead goes on and on about how we don't know the Gospel or how to be saved and how all must be OBEDIENT (to WHAT he's never been clear) ENOUGH (how much is enough he won't say).

It is, of course, pure works righteousness of a kind I've RARELY seen..... even Hindus and Muslims speak of divine help but Michael does not; even Hindus and Muslims speak of God's mercy and grace being applied and of divine forgiveness but Michael does not. Radical synergism speaks of "progressive salvation" and consistently mixes up Law and Gospel (and essentially eliminates justification) but even there, God starts thing and God empowers the process and gives His Holy Spirit, and God constantly supplies mercy, grace and forgiveness so that at least Jesus as a role (albeit not of Savior but of possibility-maker and helper) but not Michael. Friend, COULD IT BE that this self-labeled long-time Bible teacher is just poorly communicating? Could it be he makes some valid points just horribly misapplied - while just forgetting about the Gospel? Well, we've raised that and he just keeps going back to how we don't understand the Gospel and how salvation only comes to those who are "obedient enough" to (he's very unclear about that) - NOT sanctification (which isn't the subject here, as he knows) but justification (BECOMING a Christian, as he knows).

Also, friend, I realize the word "salvation" CAN be used variously, and in both a narrow and broad aspects. But just to be crystal clear, that issue was raised - and he continued to apply his "new teaching" his "divine revelation" to himself to how he knows we are are using the term.


I feel compelled to counter what he conveys because we are to be stewards of the mysteries of God and we are to renounce false teaching. My HOPE is that he is a Christian and will realize how his new "teaching" that he claims God has revealed to HIM is not sound - at the very least in how he is conveying it. But so far, I've seen nothing to indicate that he is considering anything posted to him. He's simply not conversing but continuing with this "new teaching" God (he claims) revealed to him.




Friend, here is what Lamm posted...

In another post you even mentioned that you don't refer to yourself as a Christian and that's probably a very appropriate thing since you don't trust in Christ for your salvation/eternal life with Him.

IMO, Lamm is not exactly calling him a non-Christian, she is noting HIS self-label (although I don't recall that, she does). She seems to suggest that self-label is "probably appropriate."

And she is correct in noting that he has actually rebuked us for thinking salvation is ours not because of what we did as unregenerate enemies but what Christ did and granted to us. He keeps rebuking us and repeating the teaching that (he claims) God has revealed to HIM.

Yeah, I know Lamm (as do you) and can tell she's very frustrated with this poster (she's not alone, lol) but I don't think she's crossed any lines here.





A blessed Christmas Season to you and yours...


- Josiah




.

 

[Josiah]

As to the OP, I don't disagree with the view that we are to be obedient to the word, and all that Christ has commanded us. However, obedience is the result, the evidence of salvation - Christ in us and working through us. As the Apostle said, we have no room to boast, but must do our work in humility, recognizing that the work we do is not of ourselves. Remember the words of Christ to Philip: And so it is Christ, in us, doing the work

.... and of course by "we" and "us" you mean CHRISTIANS! Which of course is not the topic here. Yes, as Lamm and I and others have stressed, CHRISTIANS are called to great things - moral perfection, divine holiness, Christ-like love and much more; and CHRISTIANS are to "strive" to do that with the power of the Holy Spirit that CHRISTIANS have and with the divine love that CHRISTIANS have with the faith that CHRISTIANS have. That doesn't save us but it is what the save are to strive to do. "Not that I'm perfect" (the one who admitted he was the "Chief of Sinners" said) "BUT I strain forward to make it my own." Yup. Absolutely. As Lamm and I and others have repeated over and over. CHRISTIANS aren't "obedient" (and won't be this side of heaven) but CHRISTIANS strive for that - BECAUSE we are Christians, justified/saved, recipients of love, faith, the Holy Spirit and of Christ Himself. Michael says we don't understand the Gospel, we are denying the Bible, his new teaching that God has revealed to him rebukes us. But remember, none of that is the issue here. The issue here is the role of OBEDIENCE (being morally perfect, being sinless, etc.) on the part of the unregenerate, atheistic, unbelieving, enemy of God (the UNChristian) in being saved (as Michael well knows) - THAT's the issue of this thread, as he knows, so his whole point of "obedient enough" is to THAT point.


... I rejoice that you have joined with the rest of us in this matter.... My HOPE is that Michael and Hobie will eventually, as well. Let us work and pray for that....




.

 

[Lamb]

Those are some major accusations. The poster has not denied Christ, but has quoted him in support of his argument. It doesn't make it necessarily correct, but it does support the credibility of the poster to state what the word actually says.

Whether right or wrong in our judgment of scripture, no Christian ought to be so self-righteous as to judge the potential damnation of another and whether a brother or sister is a Christian. Remember, that even the LCMS identifies "self-righteousness" as evidence of "developing a false and proud 'security'". What else is the quoted post other than self-righteous judgment of another?

Thanks for calling me self-righteous (sarcasm here) but as Josiah pointed out to you, Michael has already stated that he doesn't like to call himself a Christian and has repeatedly rejected that Jesus, the Christ can get him eternal life. That's his belief system which is not one that will get him to heaven. Calling out someone who rejects the Savior is not a crime and is our responsibility as Little Christs.

Edited to add that the self-righteous rely on their own works to justify themselves. I've continually stated on this site that my righteousness comes from Jesus alone.

Here is from the LCMS website:
ANSWER: Lutherans believe that faith is created and strengthened not by looking inside of one's self (to one's own faith and/or doubts) but by looking outside of one's self (to God's Word and promises in Christ).

Therefore, assurance of salvation is to be sought by looking to God's Word and promises in Christ (which create and strengthen the faith through which one is saved), not by looking inward at the strength or weakness of one's own faith (which creates either pride and false assurance or doubt and lack of assurance).

and

QUESTION: Can you lose your salvation, and, if you can, what do you need to do to regain it again?
Such warnings are intended for Christians who appear to be lacking a right understanding of the seriousness of their sin and of God's judgment against sin, and who, therefore, are in danger of developing a false and proud "security" based not on God's grace, but on their own works, self-righteousness, or freedom to "do as they please."



So you see, the self-righteous don't depend on Jesus but self.

Law & Gospel is ever so critical here. If someone denies Jesus and looks to self for justification then you give them the Law to show them they can't self-justify. Maybe that makes you uncomfortable? It probably should. The Law always accuses. You might find it unloving to give someone the Law to show them they can't succeed and will fail but it's one of the most loving things to do to point the way to everlasting life which is found in Jesus alone by grace through faith. It's a gift that can't be earned.

 

[Josiah]

Let us ALL embrace this opportunity to minister.... this opportunity IMO the Holy Spirit is providing.... in sharing the wonderful Gospel with these two community members.... in the glorious hope that either 1) We all learn horrible miscommunication has happened and we all can rejoice in the Gospel of Jesus as the Savior) OR 2) our friends realize the error of their teaching and embrace the truth - to the glory of God. To accomplish either, there must be love, listening and prayer (and probably a dose of patience). Says Josiah.... to himself first of all.....

 

[Josiah]

.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

Thanks for calling me self-righteous (sarcasm here) but as Josiah pointed out to you, Michael has already stated that he doesn't like to call himself a Christian and has repeatedly rejected that Jesus, the Christ can get him eternal life. That's his belief system which is not one that will get him to heaven. Calling out someone who rejects the Savior is not a crime and is our responsibility as Little Christs.

Edited to add that the self-righteous rely on their own works to justify themselves. I've continually stated on this site that my righteousness comes from Jesus alone.

Here is from the LCMS website:
ANSWER: Lutherans believe that faith is created and strengthened not by looking inside of one's self (to one's own faith and/or doubts) but by looking outside of one's self (to God's Word and promises in Christ).

Therefore, assurance of salvation is to be sought by looking to God's Word and promises in Christ (which create and strengthen the faith through which one is saved), not by looking inward at the strength or weakness of one's own faith (which creates either pride and false assurance or doubt and lack of assurance).

and

QUESTION: Can you lose your salvation, and, if you can, what do you need to do to regain it again?
Such warnings are intended for Christians who appear to be lacking a right understanding of the seriousness of their sin and of God's judgment against sin, and who, therefore, are in danger of developing a false and proud "security" based not on God's grace, but on their own works, self-righteousness, or freedom to "do as they please."



So you see, the self-righteous don't depend on Jesus but self.

Law & Gospel is ever so critical here. If someone denies Jesus and looks to self for justification then you give them the Law to show them they can't self-justify. Maybe that makes you uncomfortable? It probably should. The Law always accuses. You might find it unloving to give someone the Law to show them they can't succeed and will fail but it's one of the most loving things to do to point the way to everlasting life which is found in Jesus alone by grace through faith. It's a gift that can't be earned.

I've read the answer from the LCMS. Thank you for posting it for others as well. Self-righteousness is not a limited definition - it can come from the heart and judging where another's heart lies. What is that BUT relying on our own 'works' (unless you believe that sole judgment of another, and their eventual fate, is not a cognitive/mental 'work' on which we are relying). There's a distinction that should be made here. When we see another going down a path that we ourselves have one down, and call that to the attention of the other, that is not judgment - it is calling one to repentance. Self-righteous judgment rests in the false knowing of another's fate - the suggestion made earlier about the eventual fate of the OP, of which you have no knowledge. What would be more 'obedient' then but to follow the admonition of Christ (that dwells in us) to avoid this judgment; not as a condition, but as evidence of the Christ that is in us?