Christ Gave Himself Up Only For the Church

[MennoSota]

Saint John is writing to anybody who reads his letter. He addressed it to no particular group but he calls to mind the experiences of his readers and encourages them to have faith in Jesus Christ.

When saint John wrote if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world he means for his readers to be assured that Christ died for "our sins" and "for the sins of the whole world". That is why he says it that way. But saint John is not the only writer to apply Christ's work to the whole world.

Saint Paul writes: 1 Timothy 2:3-6 This is right and is acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour, [SUP]4[/SUP] who desires everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. [SUP]5[/SUP] For there is one God; there is also one mediator between God and humankind, Christ Jesus, himself human, [SUP]6[/SUP] who gave himself a ransom for all--this was attested at the right time.

Saint Peter writes: 2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow about his promise, as some think of slowness, but is patient with you, not wanting any to perish, but all to come to repentance.

God is, after all, the saviour of all people: 1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and struggle, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Saviour of all people, especially of those who believe.

The gospel message is repent and believe because the kingdom of God is at hand.

So... according to you, John wrote and sent his letter to pagans so they would read what he had to say.
Do you write to complete strangers who have beaten you and tossed you on a rocky island to die? Or do you write to friends and loved ones whom you care about?
MC, your narrative gets more and more implausable as you attempt to make your theory fit. Yet, you will not give up your view, despite the massive holes.
I suppose that if I went, verse by verse, through all the scriptures, you would still insist on your false narrative.
I get it. For years I held your false narrative. It wasn't until I let God's word utterly destroy my traditions that I could accept God's complete Sovereignty. You may never be able to let go of your human traditions and let God's word be first.

 

[MennoSota]

Your CLAIM is that it says that Christ loved ONLY the church. But that's an obvious falsehood. This is the only verse you have, and the claim you make that it says Christ died only for the elect is a falsehood, as all know.

Proverbs 8:7 also doesn't say that Christ is divine, but does that mean ERGO He is not? How silly of you....

Irrelevant to this conversation.

Try reading the following, and don't deny what God says but accept it...

1 John 2:2 Note: Not only for our sins but for the sins of "the whole world"

God chooses from the whole world, not just Israel, not just the rich, not just the poor

Hebrews 2:9 Note died for "everyone"

See the statement above.

John 1:29 Note: Of the "whole world"

See the statement above.

1 John 4:14 Note: "Savior of the whole world"

See the statement above.

John 4:42 Note: "Savior of the world"

See the statement above.

John 3:14-16 (see with Numbers 21 where the staff is for ALL who look upon it)

See the statement above.

Now, IMO, "world" is a larger group than "church" or "elect" or "Calvinists" or "Men over six feet tall" or "Americans" or "cute girls."

See the statement above.

Now, can you quote a verse that says what you do: That Jesus died ONLY for a few? Some verses that would contradict the above Scriptures? Because so far, you have ONE verse and it doesn't remotely say what you do.

You are teaching universalism. But, you cannot rationalize it with scripture so you have created a semi-pelagian pretzel to try figure out how Christ sacrifice could atone for and justify all humanity, yet all unrepentant sinners could still be sent to hell.
You force Christ's sacrificial death to not be enough for the vast amount of humanity. You say that Jesus atoned for their sins, but it wasn't enough. Humans have to do something more than what Christ could possibly do.
You have a massive contradiction that you cannot resolve. Universalists just give in to the contradiction and state that, no matter what, all humans will ultimately be saved. Thus the atonement is fully effective. They, at least, are honest with their observation.
Reformed theology says Jesus blood was shed for the elect and all that he died for are atoned for and justified. Those for whom he did not die are justly condemned.
Your semi-pelagian view leaves Jesus atonement ineffectual for the vast majority of humanity. You make God extremely weak and impotent.
The Bible does not present God as weak and impotent, but that is what you teach. You are teaching a massive contradiction.

 

[MoreCoffee]

So... according to you, John wrote and sent his letter to pagans so they would read what he had to say.

no.

Do you write to complete strangers who have beaten you and tossed you on a rocky island to die? Or do you write to friends and loved ones whom you care about?

I write to you sometimes.

MC, your narrative gets more and more implausable as you attempt to make your theory fit. Yet, you will not give up your view, despite the massive holes.

The holy scriptures say that Christ is the "atoning sacrifice for the sins of the whole world" and you deny it.

I suppose that if I went, verse by verse, through all the scriptures, you would still insist on your false narrative.

The holy scriptures say what they say and you cannot make them say something else without involving yourself in great sins.

I get it. For years I held your false narrative.

And now you reject the teaching of Christ to follow the heretical teachings of men.

It wasn't until I let God's word utterly destroy my traditions that I could accept God's complete Sovereignty.

It is interesting that YOU LET GOD do such and such a thing and yet complain that others somehow deny God's absolute sovereignty by believing what God inspired saints John, Paul, and Peter to write.

You may never be able to let go of your human traditions and let God's word be first.

God is sovereign and will accomplish his purposes with or without your consent.

 

[MennoSota]

MC wrote:
The holy scriptures say that Christ is the "atoning sacrifice for the sins of the whole world" and you deny it.

You are incorrect.
The scripture says that Christ's atonement is for every person. It does not say that Christ atoned for all sins, universally.
You state that Christ atoned for all sins, universally, but...
...most people go to hell despite being atoned for.
You make the blood of Christ worthless for most so that his sacrifice was impotent to save.
You lift up humanity while casting Christ Jesus down off from His throne. Sadly, you cannot and will not see this fact, because you harbor yourself as the chooser of your own salvation. Josiah does the same thing, even though he tries to claim the Solas at the same time.
Semi-pelagianism is an insidious disease in the church. It allows Christians to claim God is Sovereign while they simultaneously kick God off the throne and replace Him with their own works, based upon free-will.
You have a huge biblical dilemma with your quoted claim...and you cannot/will not see the problem.

 

[Josiah]

The scripture says that Christ's atonement is for every person.

Thus you admit your error. Christ did NOT die ONLY for "the elect" "the church' "Calvinists"

Your CLAIM is that it says that Christ loved ONLY the church. But that's an obvious falsehood. This is the only verse you have, and the claim you make that it says Christ died only for the elect is a falsehood, as all know.

Proverbs 8:7 also doesn't say that Christ is divine, but does that mean ERGO He is not? How silly of you....

.

Irrelevant to this conversation.

You gave ONE verse... then based your entire argument on how it does not specifically mention any other than "the church." I simply noted the silliness of your entire apologetic. OF COURSE you ignored it.

Try reading the following, and don't deny what God says but accept it...

1 John 2:2 Note: Not only for our sins but for the sins of "the whole world"

.

God chooses from the whole world

The verse does not say "FROM the whole word" but FOR the whole world." You keep having to CHANGE Scripture so that it doesn't contradict you. Read what GOD says.... and believe.




Hebrews 2:9 Note: It states Christ died for "everyone"

John 1:29 Note: Of the "whole world"

1 John 4:14 Note: "Savior of the whole world"

John 4:42 Note: "Savior of the world"

John 3:14-16 (see with Numbers 21 where the staff is for ALL who look upon it)


Now, IMO, "world" is a larger group than "church" or "elect" or "Calvinists" or "Men over six feet tall" or "Americans" or "cute girls."
See the statement above.


Now, can you quote a verse that says what you do: That Jesus died ONLY for a few? Some verses that would contradict the above Scriptures? Because so far, you have ONE verse and it doesn't remotely say what you do.




.

 

[MennoSota]

Thus you admit your error. Christ did NOT die ONLY for "the elect" "the church' "Calvinists"

I wrote:

The scripture says that Christ's atonement is for every person.

You fail to understand what I wrote, just as you fail to understand what scripture declares.
Every human may be chosen by God unto redemption. There is no specific people group, status group, economic group, from which God chooses to save sinners.
All, within the pool, may be saved. But, not all ARE saved. Not all ARE chosen. Not all ARE atoned by Jesus. Ephesians tells us that Jesus atones the church...his body. He makes them blemish free. He does not do that for anyone else.
From what pool does God choose to pluck sinners and make them His unblemished bride? From the entire world.
Does Jesus atone for all people in the pool? No. Not at all. He only atones for those whom he has chosen to make holy.
You claim (falsely) that Jesus atones everyone in the pool and then tosses the vast majority of them into hell for being sinners. You claim that Jesus atonement is not sufficient. Your claim is utterly wrong.

 

[MoreCoffee]

You are incorrect.
The scripture says that Christ's atonement is for every person. It does not say that Christ atoned for all sins, universally.
You state that Christ atoned for all sins, universally, but...
...most people go to hell despite being atoned for.
You make the blood of Christ worthless for most so that his sacrifice was impotent to save.
You lift up humanity while casting Christ Jesus down off from His throne. Sadly, you cannot and will not see this fact, because you harbor yourself as the chooser of your own salvation. Josiah does the same thing, even though he tries to claim the Solas at the same time.
Semi-pelagianism is an insidious disease in the church. It allows Christians to claim God is Sovereign while they simultaneously kick God off the throne and replace Him with their own works, based upon free-will.
You have a huge biblical dilemma with your quoted claim...and you cannot/will not see the problem.

You have a talent for misstating what holy scripture says. Saint John wrote if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world he means for his readers to be assured that Christ died for "our sins" and "for the sins of the whole world". That is why he says it that way. But saint John is not the only writer to apply Christ's work to the whole world.

 

[Josiah]

Every human may be chosen by God unto redemption. There is no specific people group, status group, economic group, from which God chooses to save sinners.

You wrote that Christ's atonement is "ONLY for the church." Then admitted your error and stated the opposite in post 64


You simply CHANGED the many verses, needing to change the word "FOR" to "FROM." Sorry, you were caught.




Read the verses. NONE of them says "FROM among...." NONE of them says "ONLY." All of them directly contradict your claim.

Hebrews 2:9 Note: It states Christ died for "everyone" it does not say, "only a few chosen FROM everyone."

John 1:29 Note: Of the "whole world"

1 John 4:14 Note: "Savior of the whole world"

John 4:42 Note: "Savior of the world"

John 3:14-16 (see with Numbers 21 where the staff is for ALL who look upon it)

... and so many more.




Now, can you quote a verse that says what you do: That Jesus died ONLY for a few? Some verses that would contradict the above Scriptures? Because so far, you have ONE verse and it doesn't remotely say what you do.





.

 

[MennoSota]

You have a talent for misstating what holy scripture says. Saint John wrote if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world he means for his readers to be assured that Christ died for "our sins" and "for the sins of the whole world". That is why he says it that way. But saint John is not the only writer to apply Christ's work to the whole world.

Why was Jesus atonement so ineffective, MC?
If your interpretation is correct, then Jesus cleansed all humanity, yet 90+% are sent to hell anyway. Was Jesus death that worthless for so many? Was God so weak that over 90% of humanity go to hell...even though their sins are atoned?
How is it that you make God so pitifully weak?

 

[MennoSota]

You wrote that Christ's atonement is "ONLY for the church." Then admitted your error and stated the opposite in post 64


You simply CHANGED the many verses, needing to change the word "FOR" to "FROM." Sorry, you were caught.




Read the verses. NONE of them says "FROM among...." NONE of them says "ONLY." All of them directly contradict your claim.

Hebrews 2:9 Note: It states Christ died for "everyone" it does not say, "only a few chosen FROM everyone."

John 1:29 Note: Of the "whole world"

1 John 4:14 Note: "Savior of the whole world"

John 4:42 Note: "Savior of the world"

John 3:14-16 (see with Numbers 21 where the staff is for ALL who look upon it)

... and so many more.


Now, IMO, "world" is a larger group than "church" or "elect" or "Calvinists" or "Men over six feet tall" or "Americans" or "cute girls."


Now, can you quote a verse that says what you do: That Jesus died ONLY for a few? Some verses that would contradict the above Scriptures? Because so far, you have ONE verse and it doesn't remotely say what you do.




.

Josiah, read my response to MC.

Why do you insist upon Jesus atonement being ineffective for over 90% of humanity? Why do you declare God as being pitifully weak, even though you claim God atoned for all humanities sins?
Can you imagine a mom with 10 children whom she has washed and cleansed, turning to 9 of them and saying..."You reject the fact that you had a bath. I am now tossing you into the bonfire I have made in the backyard."
That is essentially what you are saying God does with humanity. Do you see how vile your belief is?

 

[MennoSota]

Verses to consider (as requested by Josiah)

Ephesians 1:4
John 6:37-49
Isaiah 53:8,11-12
Ephesians 2:1-5
Matthew 1:21
John 10:11, 14-16, 26-29
Romans 4:25
Romans 8:31-33
Galatians 1:4
Galatians 3:13
1 Corinthians 6:20
1 Corinthians 7:23
2 Corinthians 5:21
1 Peter 1:2
1 Peter 2:24

That should do it for now.
https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/limitedatonement.html

 

[Albion]

You are teaching universalism.

That is unvarnished nonsense.

The opposite of predestination and limited atonement is definitely not universalism. Universalism would be one way of rejecting it, but any rejection of the TULIP scenario fits the bill just as well, as the standard Roman Catholic/Eastern Orthodox approach(es) do and, also, that of most Protestant churches.

 

[Josiah]

Verses to consider (as requested by Josiah)

Ephesians 1:4
John 6:37-49
Isaiah 53:8,11-12
Ephesians 2:1-5
Matthew 1:21
John 10:11, 14-16, 26-29
Romans 4:25
Romans 8:31-33
Galatians 1:4
Galatians 3:13
1 Corinthians 6:20
1 Corinthians 7:23
2 Corinthians 5:21
1 Peter 1:2
1 Peter 2:24

That should do it for now.

Not one of them states that Jesus died for ONLY a few or ONLY the church or ONLY Calvinists or ONLY the elect.
Not one of them.
NONE of the verses you reference remotely teaches what you do.
Not one of them.
Obviously.


Again, you must CHANGE every one of the verses you reference by adding the word you insist is "there" (ONLY) that's not in ANY of the verses you reference, NONE of them remotely makes your point. If I posted "I'm an American" that would not prove that ergo I'm the ONLY American.




Read the following.... do not ignore but believe:


1 John 2:2 Note: It states that Jesus is the expiation for our sins AND NOT ONLY OURS BUT FOR THE SINS OF THE ENTIRE WORLD. Not, "... for the sins of only a few people chosen from out of the whole world."

Hebrews 2:9 Note: It states Christ died for "everyone"

John 1:29 Note: Of the "whole world"

1 John 4:14 Note: "Savior of the whole world"

John 4:42 Note: "Savior of the world"

John 3:14-16 (see with Numbers 21 where the staff is for ALL who look upon it)

... and so many more.



Now, can you quote a verse that says what you do: That Jesus died ONLY for a few? Some verses that would contradict the above Scriptures?



.


.

 

[MennoSota]

That is unvarnished nonsense.

The opposite of predestination and limited atonement is definitely not universalism. Universalism would be one way of rejecting it, but any rejection of the TULIP scenario fits the bill just as well, as the standard Roman Catholic/Eastern Orthodox approach(es) do and, also, that of most Protestant churches.

I have outlined the semi-pelagian view of the masses, which makes God wimpy and his atonement ineffective for the majority. I assume you are a part of the semi-pelagian community.

 

[MennoSota]

Not one of them states that Jesus died for ONLY a few or ONLY the church or ONLY Calvinists.
Not one of them.

Again, you must CHANGE every one of the verses you reference by adding the word you insist is "there" (ONLY) that's not in ANY of the verses you reference, NONE of them remotely makes your point. If I posted "I'm an American" that would not prove that ergo I'm the ONLY American.


.

Josiah, you are the ONLY person requiring the word ONLY.

 

[Josiah]

Josiah, you are the ONLY person requiring the word ONLY.

I guess you haven't been reading your own posts...
Obviously, you didn't read the opening post (that you wrote) or the title of the thread (which you created).


You may not even be aware of the dogma you are finding impossible to defend. LIMITED atonement is that the atonement of Christ is LIMITED. It is that, "God the Father designed the work of redemption specifically with a view to providing salvation only for the elect, and that Christ died only for His sheep and laid down His life only for those the Father had given to Him." The doctrine is NOT that the effect or fruit of this is limited, but that the actual atonement is limited. But as you have proven, not only does this directly contradict a LOT of clear Scriptures but is entirely unsupported by Scriptures (as you've proven so well).

Your attempt to dodge the reality that this new dogma of a tiny minority of Calvinists directly contradicts Scripture and has NO Scripture to support it by imposing your ABSURD claim of "pelagianism" and "universalism" (trying to dodge your problem) -neither of which has anything whatsoever to do with this and neither of which is remotely supported but strongly rejected by [MENTION=389]Albion[/MENTION] and myself. Again, you follow many uber-Calvinists in rejecting Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide by simply regarding faith as irrelevant; simply eliminate that from the issue of justification. A lack of FAITH is why this atonement does not benefit the unbeliever, NOT a lack of the Savior, the Cross, mercy, grace. Faith is the variant, not Christ.




- Josiah




.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Why was Jesus atonement so ineffective, MC?

Do you mean "why did saint John write:'if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world'"

If your interpretation is correct, then Jesus cleansed all humanity, yet 90+% are sent to hell anyway. Was Jesus death that worthless for so many? Was God so weak that over 90% of humanity go to hell...even though their sins are atoned?

It isn't interpretation when all that is done is quote what saint John wrote. "if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world"

How is it that you make God so pitifully weak?

Why do you need to twist holy scripture?

 

[Josiah]

It isn't interpretation when all that is done is quote what saint John wrote. "if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world"

.

Yup




.

 

[MennoSota]

I guess you haven't been reading your own posts...
Obviously, you didn't read the opening post (that you wrote) or the title of the thread (which you created).


You may not even be aware of the dogma you are finding impossible to defend. LIMITED atonement is that the atonement of Christ is LIMITED. It is that, "God the Father designed the work of redemption specifically with a view to providing salvation only for the elect, and that Christ died only for His sheep and laid down His life only for those the Father had given to Him." The doctrine is NOT that the effect or fruit of this is limited, but that the actual atonement is limited. But as you have proven, not only does this directly contradict a LOT of clear Scriptures but is entirely unsupported by Scriptures (as you've proven so well).

Your attempt to dodge the reality that this new dogma of a tiny minority of Calvinists directly contradicts Scripture and has NO Scripture to support it by imposing your ABSURD claim of "pelagianism" and "universalism" (trying to dodge your problem) -neither of which has anything whatsoever to do with this and neither of which is remotely supported but strongly rejected by [MENTION=389]Albion[/MENTION] and myself. Again, you follow many uber-Calvinists in rejecting Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide by simply regarding faith as irrelevant; simply eliminate that from the issue of justification. A lack of FAITH is why this atonement does not benefit the unbeliever, NOT a lack of the Savior, the Cross, mercy, grace. Faith is the variant, not Christ.




- Josiah




.

Ah, so now you claim that faith is a human effort that is lacking. The lack of human capability is much more powerful than the universal atonement you proclaim.
In your view, men are responsible for their salvation and God is too impotent to make his atonement greater than man's conjured up faith.
Josiah, you and MC are both semi-pelagians. It's laughable that you ever claimed to be a monergist. There is nothing you present that is monergistic.
You reject God's Sovereignty and replace it with your man-made faith. You might as well be a Roman Catholic again.

 

[MennoSota]

Do you mean "why did saint John write:'if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world'"


It isn't interpretation when all that is done is quote what saint John wrote. "if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world"



Why do you need to twist holy scripture?

Funny, in your interpretation, the human doesn't have to be a Christian. Any human, in your interpretation, is atoned for. That's pure universalism. To you, faith and repentance is unnecessary.
This is the obvious interpretation of your position, MC. Yet, you cannot see what you are preaching.
Why do you despise God's Sovereignty over humans?