Salvation - Part 2

[Josiah]

One message says:

You keep insisting that IF ONLY WE...THEN GOD WILL...

That's not how God has salvation laid out for us.​

But that message is wrong.

Holy scripture does say "If only we ... then God will ..."

Here's an example

If only we believed God .... then God will ... Romans 10:9 10:9 if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and if you believe in your heart that God has raised him up from the dead, [then] you shall be saved.​

And another example

If only we kept Jesus' commandments ... then Jesus will ... John 15:10 If you keep my commandments, [then] you shall abide in my love, just as I also have kept my Father's commandments and I abide in his love.​

It's evident that the gospel does work with an if you do that then God will do this where the this that God does is save and grant that you will aide in God's love

I posted this idea earlier but did not spell out what the verses say and maybe the importance of the verses could be overlooked that way so now I have quoted the verses and pointed to what they have to say in their "if only we would ... then God will ..." form.

You keep documenting how you confuse Law and Gospel (including the idea that if God calls on a dead one to do something ERGO he must be able to do it).... and how you keep mandating that the word "and" MUST MANDATE chronological order....

But here is what is stunning (and disturbing) to me: The Protestants keep saying Jesus is the Savior and does the saving (in the sense of narrow justification)... and you keep fighting that, arguing and debating that.... always seeking ways to make fallen/dead man as big and able and important as possible while making Jesus as small and unimportant as possible.

 

[psalms 91]

Romans 10:9-10 is so simple why does it get so complicated? This is how to be saved pure and simple although I am sure you scholors will complicate it again.

 

[Albion]

No, that is a very powerful and very straightforward passage that deserves to be better remembered than it is (which I suspect is what you were thinking as you wrote your post).

 

[MoreCoffee]

Romans 10:9-10 is so simple why does it get so complicated? This is how to be saved pure and simple although I am sure you scholors will complicate it again.

You are right that the verses are simple enough to understand without calling for a scholar to explain it all for you. And you are right that it will be made complicated for the sake of somebody's theology. Perhaps a straw man about "law and gospel" or a false claim about "misunderstanding the words in the verse to imply order in time". But the non-scholar who isn't pushing a theological barrow will most likely read the words and think if I confess Jesus and believe in my heart that he is Lord then God will save. There's no quarrel in such a person's mind about what comes first or if the verse is Law or Gospel to such a reader it is inspired holy scripture and a word from God to him or her.

Romans 10:9 You are saved, if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord, and, in your heart, you believe that God raised him from the dead. 10 By believing from the heart, you obtain true righteousness; by confessing the faith with your lips, you are saved. 11 For Scripture says: No one who believes in him will be ashamed. 12 Here, there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; all have the same Lord, who is very generous with whoever calls on him.13 Truly, all who call upon the name of the Lord will be saved. (from The Christian Community Bible, available online).

 

[MennoSota]

You are right that the verses are simple enough to understand without calling for a scholar to explain it all for you. And you are right that it will be made complicated for the sake of somebody's theology. Perhaps a straw man about "law and gospel" or a false claim about "misunderstanding the words in the verse to imply order in time". But the non-scholar who isn't pushing a theological barrow will most likely read the words and think if I confess Jesus and believe in my heart that he is Lord then God will save. There's no quarrel in such a person's mind about what come first or if the verse is Law or Gospel to such a reader it is inspired holy scripture and a word from God to him or her.

Romans 10:9 You are saved, if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord, and, in your heart, you believe that God raised him from the dead. 10 By believing from the heart, you obtain true righteousness; by confessing the faith with your lips, you are saved. 11 For Scripture says: No one who believes in him will be ashamed. 12 Here, there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; all have the same Lord, who is very generous with whoever calls on him.13 Truly, all who call upon the name of the Lord will be saved. (from The Christian Community Bible, available online).

It is important to see the context before vs 9. Let's look at verses 5-8.

5*For Moses writes that the law’s way of making a person right with God requires obedience to all of its commands.*6*But faith’s way of getting right with God says, “Don’t say in your heart, ‘Who will go up to heaven?’ (to bring Christ down to earth).*7*And don’t say, ‘Who will go down to the place of the dead?’ (to bring Christ back to life again).”*8*In fact, it says,

“The message is very close at hand;
****it is on your lips and in your heart.”

And that message is the very message about faith that we preach:

Notice that Paul is contrasting faith with the law. The law is works based. What is faith? Ephesians 2:8-9 tells us it is a gift from God, given to those whom He has made alive in Christ Jesus.

8*God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God.*9*Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it.

Let's return to Romans 10:9.
9*If you openly declare that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Notice that the ability to believe is a gift from God. So, only those who are made alive in Christ can do what Paul declares in Romans 10:9.
Belief is not a will full act of your own corrupt nature. Belief is a gift from God, given without merit (graciously) by God, to those whom God has chosen to make alive in Christ Jesus.
By believing you will be saved.
Nowhere does Paul say, "By conjuring up your own will power and declaring out loud your faith, you become saved." Yet...that is the false conclusion you are presenting from Romans 10:9.

 

[psalms 91]

It is important to see the context before vs 9. Let's look at verses 5-8.

Notice that Paul is contrasting faith with the law. The law is works based. What is faith? Ephesians 2:8-9 tells us it is a gift from God, given to those whom He has made alive in Christ Jesus.

Let's return to Romans 10:9.
9*If you openly declare that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Notice that the ability to believe is a gift from God. So, only those who are made alive in Christ can do what Paul declares in Romans 10:9.
Belief is not a will full act of your own corrupt nature. Belief is a gift from God, given without merit (graciously) by God, to those whom God has chosen to make alive in Christ Jesus.
By believing you will be saved.
Nowhere does Paul say, "By conjuring up your own will power and declaring out loud your faith, you become saved." Yet...that is the false conclusion you are presenting from Romans 10:9.

Sigh

 

[Lamb]

Who can confess Jesus is Lord unless God first gives faith to make that confession?

What does the confession say about Jesus...that He was raised from the dead and to be raised from the dead one first has to die as Jesus did. What did His faith accomplish?

When you put too much into Romans 10:9-10 as if it's a magic formula instead of looking at what's it's saying about our Savior then you miss out on something big. You can't see the forest through the trees. So of course you're going to pat yourself on the back and say "I'm saved because I..." instead of seeing that Romans 10 is about Jesus our Savior.

It's about His doing and you can't even confess about Him unless GOD first does something. Not you.

 

[Josiah]

Romans 10:9-10 is so simple why does it get so complicated? This is how to be saved pure and simple although I am sure you scholors will complicate it again.

The Gospel is so simple, so beautiful, so wonderful... that you have to wonder why any Christian would go on and on and on and on arguing and debating the point. John 3:16 Romans 5:8 Titus 3:5 Romans 6:23 Ephesians 2:8 1 John 2:2 Romans 3:22-24


These threads are all the same: Some Protestant says "Jesus is the Savior" "Jesus saves" and a few non-Protestants seem to come unglued, going on and on and on and on (often for hundreds of posts, indeed sometimes hundreds of pages of posts) debating and arguing that. The Protestants keep coming back to that simple, beautiful message... the keystone of Christianity... and the argument from some continues against it. Makes you wonder.


There seems to be almost an obsession to try ANYTHING that makes fallen man as BIG, as capable, as important, as key as possible.... while making Jesus as SMALL, as unimportant as is possible. To make man as great and able as they can argue... God's mercy and salvation as unnecessary as possible. Makes you wonder.


It's like this at all the websites... in all conversations on this subject... And as one who finished several books on the Reformation last year, it's exactly what happened then, too. Why?




.

 

[MennoSota]

Sigh

I know Ps91, you want a feely faith without scripture to wrestle through. Sorry that God did not toss out scripture and just let you shake and roll on the floor.
Sigh

 

[psalms 91]

I know Ps91, you want a feely faith without scripture to wrestle through. Sorry that God did not toss out scripture and just let you shake and roll on the floor.
Sigh

Not a fair assessment at all, I just disagree is all but yes I want simple scripture accepted at face value without the long discussions as well. You assume about me and that is a mistake or are you just trying to get a debate started? The way you posted is exactly why I dont engage you, it is insulting

 

[MennoSota]

Not a fair assessment at all, I just disagree is all but yes I want simple scripture accepted at face value without the long discussions as well. You assume about me and that is a mistake or are you just trying to get a debate started? The way you posted is exactly why I dont engage you, it is insulting

The totality of scripture defines what, on the surface, seems simple. Sadly, there is a bunch of denominations that teach "just say the prayer" and you're saved. But, that is not biblically sound. Many unsaved people are clinging to their magic incantation as the means to salvation.

 

[psalms 91]

While I agree that there is so much more but to me that is after salvation. Jesus accepts us just as we are and then the c,leaning up begins after salvation so to me getting saved is just that simple

 

[Josiah]

While I agree that there is so much more but to me that is after salvation. Jesus accepts us just as we are and then the c,leaning up begins after salvation so to me getting saved is just that simple

Ahha.

God saves then we respond...
God gives life then we begin to live that life....

What you said is very important, Bill. You are making a distinction between justification and sanctification... and you are doing so not only because it's biblical but because then you are holding to Jesus as the Savior..... Jesus' works being the salvic ones.... the Holy Spirit being the GIVER of life3. AND you are equally embracing the other (equally simple and biblical) Truth: We are saved not just for heaven but for good works, we are not give life so that nothing results but so that we will live.

 

[MennoSota]

While I agree that there is so much more but to me that is after salvation. Jesus accepts us just as we are and then the c,leaning up begins after salvation so to me getting saved is just that simple

God views us in Christ. He does not accept us as we are. He hates us as we are. As we are, we are corrupt rebels in opposition to God. There is nothing there to love or accept.
God must make us alive in Christ first in order to view us in Christ. At that point God then gives us faith to believe that we are actually reconciled with the one whom we once considered our sworn enemy.

 

[Josiah]

God views us in Christ. He does not accept us as we are. He hates us as we are. As we are, we are corrupt rebels in opposition to God. There is nothing there to love or accept.
God must make us alive in Christ first in order to view us in Christ. At that point God then gives us faith to believe that we are actually reconciled with the one whom we once considered our sworn enemy.

Of course, according to TULIPian uber-Calvinist, God actively chose to NOT make most alive in Christ but rather to set them aside as the eternally damned, in order to populate hell with most people. Since most are actively exempted from Christ, from His mercy and grace, from anything remotely related to Christ, since God determined that Christ would NOT die for all these folks (the majority of humans), therefore he doesn't make most alive (wouldn't do any good) and doesn't give most faith (would be in vain since their faith would be in something they are excluded from, nothing for that faith to apprehend or trust or rely up... and thus the Devil gets most.


I disagree with all these "logical" attempts to make God small and evil..... or man big and good. Whether that is Pelagianism/Arminianism and the falsehood of "free will" or whether that is TULIPianism (lol) and Limited Atonement and the falsehood that God wants most to go to Hell. Man is not good... God is not bad.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Sigh

I completely agree. *sigh*

Context always matters but who here on CH hasn't read saint Paul's letter to the Romans? I am confident that you, brother Psalms 91, have read it and know the context. I have, I am confident that brother Arsenios has too. Sames goes for MennoSota, Josiah, Lamm and everybody else participating in the discussion. What I am not confident about is how the context can eviscerate what the verses say. I posted Romans 10:9 as an example of holy scripture doing exactly what Lamm said wasn't the way the gospel works. But it is the way the gospel works, it may not be the one and only way it works but it is a way, a very common way, that it works and that is why saint Paul writes about it the way he does.

For context, the immediate context is from verse 5 to verse 21

Romans 10:5-21 [SUP]5[/SUP] And Moses wrote, about the justice that is of the law, that the man who will have done justice shall live by justice. [SUP]6[/SUP] But the justice that is of faith speaks in this way: Do not say in your heart: "Who shall ascend into heaven?" (that is, to bring Christ down); [SUP]7[/SUP] "Or who shall descend into the abyss?" (that is, to call back Christ from the dead). [SUP]8[/SUP] But what does Scripture say? "The word is near, in your mouth and in your heart." This is the word of faith, which we are preaching. [SUP]9[/SUP] For if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and if you believe in your heart that God has raised him up from the dead, you shall be saved. [SUP]10[/SUP] For with the heart, we believe unto justice; but with the mouth, confession is unto salvation. [SUP]11[/SUP] For Scripture says: "All those who believe in him shall not be confounded." [SUP]12[/SUP] For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek. For the same Lord is over all, richly in all who call upon him. [SUP]13[/SUP] For all those who have called upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. [SUP]14[/SUP] Then in what way will those who have not believed in him call upon him? Or in what way will those who have not heard of him believe in him? And in what way will they hear of him without preaching? [SUP]15[/SUP] And truly, in what way will they preach, unless they have been sent, just as it has been written: "How beautiful are the feet of those who evangelize peace, of those who evangelize what is good!" [SUP]16[/SUP] But not all are obedient to the Gospel. For Isaiah says: "Lord, who has believed our report?" [SUP]17[/SUP] Therefore, faith is from hearing, and hearing is through the Word of Christ. [SUP]18[/SUP] But I say: Have they not heard? For certainly: "Their sound has gone forth throughout all the earth, and their words unto the limits of the whole world." [SUP]19[/SUP] But I say: Has Israel not known? First, Moses says: "I will lead you into a rivalry with those who are not a nation; in the midst of a foolish nation, I will send you into wrath." [SUP]20[/SUP] And Isaiah dares to say: "I was discovered by those who were not seeking me. I appeared openly to those who were not asking about me." [SUP]21[/SUP] Then to Israel he says: "All day long I have stretched out my hands to a people who do not believe and who contradict me."​

 

[Arsenios]

Romans 10:5-21

5 And Moses wrote, about the justice that is of the law,
that the man who will have done justice shall live by justice.
6 But the justice that is of faith speaks in this way:
Do not say in your heart: "Who shall ascend into heaven?"
(that is, to bring Christ down);
7 "Or who shall descend into the abyss?"
(that is, to call back Christ from the dead).
8 But what does Scripture say?
"The word is near, in your mouth and in your heart."
This is the word of faith, which we are preaching.
9 For if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus,
and if you believe in your heart that God has raised him up from the dead,
you shall be saved.
10 For with the heart, we believe unto justice;
but with the mouth, confession is unto salvation.
11 For Scripture says:
"All those who believe in him shall not be confounded."
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek.
For the same Lord is over all,
richly in all who call upon him.
13 For all those who have called upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 Then in what way will those who have not believed in him call upon him?
Or in what way will those who have not heard of him believe in him?
And in what way will they hear of him without preaching?
15 And truly, in what way will they preach,
unless they have been sent,
just as it has been written:
"How beautiful are the feet of those who evangelize peace,
of those who evangelize what is good!"
16 But not all are obedient to the Gospel.
For Isaiah says: "Lord, who has believed our report?"
17 Therefore, faith is from hearing,
and hearing is through the Word of Christ.
18 But I say: Have they not heard?
For certainly:
"Their sound has gone forth throughout all the earth,
and their words unto the limits of the whole world."
19 But I say: Has Israel not known?
First, Moses says:
"I will lead you into a rivalry with those who are not a nation;
in the midst of a foolish nation, I will send you into wrath."
20 And Isaiah dares to say:
"I was discovered by those who were not seeking me.
I appeared openly to those who were not asking about me."
21 Then to Israel he says:
"All day long I have stretched out my hands
to a people who do not believe
and who contradict me."

16 But not all are obedient to the Gospel.
For Isaiah says:
"Lord, who has believed our report?"

This seems very clearly to say that
to BELIEVE the Gospel is to OBEY the Gospel...

We all know that obedience is a work...
Therefore believing is a work...


Arsenios

 

[MoreCoffee]

Romans 10:5-21... <quoted verses removed for brevity's sake>
16 But not all are obedient to the Gospel.
For Isaiah says:
"Lord, who has believed our report?"

This seems very clearly to say that
to BELIEVE the Gospel is to OBEY the Gospel...

We all know that obedience is a work...
Therefore believing is a work...


Arsenios

Amen, a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. Believing the gospel necessarily implies obeying it and that necessarily means doing good works, if the faith has no works it is dead, some call it false faith but it is just dead faith and as useless to the living as death is.

 

[Lamb]

I completely agree. *sigh*

Context always matters but who here on CH hasn't read saint Paul's letter to the Romans? I am confident that you, brother Psalms 91, have read it and know the context. I have, I am confident that brother Arsenios has too. Sames goes for MennoSota, Josiah, Lamm and everybody else participating in the discussion. What I am not confident about is how the context can eviscerate what the verses say. I posted Romans 10:9 as an example of holy scripture doing exactly what Lamm said wasn't the way the gospel works. But it is the way the gospel works, it may not be the one and only way it works but it is a way, a very common way, that it works and that is why saint Paul writes about it the way he does.

For context, the immediate context is from verse 5 to verse 21

Romans 10:5-21 [SUP]5[/SUP] And Moses wrote, about the justice that is of the law, that the man who will have done justice shall live by justice. [SUP]6[/SUP] But the justice that is of faith speaks in this way: Do not say in your heart: "Who shall ascend into heaven?" (that is, to bring Christ down); [SUP]7[/SUP] "Or who shall descend into the abyss?" (that is, to call back Christ from the dead). [SUP]8[/SUP] But what does Scripture say? "The word is near, in your mouth and in your heart." This is the word of faith, which we are preaching. [SUP]9[/SUP] For if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and if you believe in your heart that God has raised him up from the dead, you shall be saved. [SUP]10[/SUP] For with the heart, we believe unto justice; but with the mouth, confession is unto salvation. [SUP]11[/SUP] For Scripture says: "All those who believe in him shall not be confounded." [SUP]12[/SUP] For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek. For the same Lord is over all, richly in all who call upon him. [SUP]13[/SUP] For all those who have called upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. [SUP]14[/SUP] Then in what way will those who have not believed in him call upon him? Or in what way will those who have not heard of him believe in him? And in what way will they hear of him without preaching? [SUP]15[/SUP] And truly, in what way will they preach, unless they have been sent, just as it has been written: "How beautiful are the feet of those who evangelize peace, of those who evangelize what is good!" [SUP]16[/SUP] But not all are obedient to the Gospel. For Isaiah says: "Lord, who has believed our report?" [SUP]17[/SUP] Therefore, faith is from hearing, and hearing is through the Word of Christ. [SUP]18[/SUP] But I say: Have they not heard? For certainly: "Their sound has gone forth throughout all the earth, and their words unto the limits of the whole world." [SUP]19[/SUP] But I say: Has Israel not known? First, Moses says: "I will lead you into a rivalry with those who are not a nation; in the midst of a foolish nation, I will send you into wrath." [SUP]20[/SUP] And Isaiah dares to say: "I was discovered by those who were not seeking me. I appeared openly to those who were not asking about me." [SUP]21[/SUP] Then to Israel he says: "All day long I have stretched out my hands to a people who do not believe and who contradict me."​

I said Romans 10:9-10 was not a magic formula meaning you were turning that verse into something as if it were up to you do save yourself without God being behind it all along. The Gospel is God's work and He moves us to repentance but that's His action in us. It's not as if we first repent without something happening a long time ago that mattered, hmm? You see, it's all about Jesus and His dying for your sins. That's the part that is important for salvation. That's what happened before you were born. Before you could ever repent.

 

[Lamb]

Romans 10:5-21

5 And Moses wrote, about the justice that is of the law,
that the man who will have done justice shall live by justice.
6 But the justice that is of faith speaks in this way:
Do not say in your heart: "Who shall ascend into heaven?"
(that is, to bring Christ down);
7 "Or who shall descend into the abyss?"
(that is, to call back Christ from the dead).
8 But what does Scripture say?
"The word is near, in your mouth and in your heart."
This is the word of faith, which we are preaching.
9 For if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus,
and if you believe in your heart that God has raised him up from the dead,
you shall be saved.
10 For with the heart, we believe unto justice;
but with the mouth, confession is unto salvation.
11 For Scripture says:
"All those who believe in him shall not be confounded."
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek.
For the same Lord is over all,
richly in all who call upon him.
13 For all those who have called upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 Then in what way will those who have not believed in him call upon him?
Or in what way will those who have not heard of him believe in him?
And in what way will they hear of him without preaching?
15 And truly, in what way will they preach,
unless they have been sent,
just as it has been written:
"How beautiful are the feet of those who evangelize peace,
of those who evangelize what is good!"
16 But not all are obedient to the Gospel.
For Isaiah says: "Lord, who has believed our report?"
17 Therefore, faith is from hearing,
and hearing is through the Word of Christ.
18 But I say: Have they not heard?
For certainly:
"Their sound has gone forth throughout all the earth,
and their words unto the limits of the whole world."
19 But I say: Has Israel not known?
First, Moses says:
"I will lead you into a rivalry with those who are not a nation;
in the midst of a foolish nation, I will send you into wrath."
20 And Isaiah dares to say:
"I was discovered by those who were not seeking me.
I appeared openly to those who were not asking about me."
21 Then to Israel he says:
"All day long I have stretched out my hands
to a people who do not believe
and who contradict me."

16 But not all are obedient to the Gospel.
For Isaiah says:
"Lord, who has believed our report?"

This seems very clearly to say that
to BELIEVE the Gospel is to OBEY the Gospel...

We all know that obedience is a work...
Therefore believing is a work...


Arsenios

We cannot believe or obey anything that first isn't true. That's the most relevant part...Jesus. What He did for you at the cross. That's your salvation. Look to Him.